I have been in this industry for 40 years. 20 of those years I have been a distributor for Cross-American. Most of you already have defended Ed since many have talked to him on the phone and many have purchaced equipment from him . All with good products and great service.

When Ed Valentine sells a Recoil 3 XPS this is not just a sale. It is the beginning of a relationship with somebody who will always be there when you call. He is very generous with his advice from his many years of experience in this industry.

To sell a machine on whether or not a person may or may not be satisified is not possible. Yes I have seen "buy back guarantees". Have any of you ever read one. Basically if you purchace a Bane Clene truckmount or a Butler and decide that you want to return it. Yes you can do that! However it is going to cost you so much money and trouble that it isn't worth it. I owned a Bane System and I read their buy back guarantee.

I don't blame those companies for their policies . But the fact of the matter is that Ed Valentine is just too honest to do something like that.  He wants you to be convinced that your purchace is a good one. And when you do get your Recoil 3 XPS or a Power Booster you will love it. 

Soil Lint Green wrote: Grunt, what do you use to clean carpet?  Some gas guzzling gross polluter or a rental rug doctor?  Not sure why you try to talk crap about the best unit on the market but your colors are starting to show real fast.

Remarks like that are just ignorant.  

If you use electricity, do you know where that comes from?  I'll give you a hint, it's not free of pollutants either.

It's interesting, and funny, to see being self-righteous about not having a truck mount.  Most people would prefer one, except for the price which they can not afford.  Portables are certainly useful, and advantageous in many situations, so I'm not knocking them.  

Furthermore, emission of carbon dioxide are VERY green, not the reverse.  The uneducated somehow frame these emissions differently, but, as anyone should know, plants LOVE carbon dioxide.  They grow faster, by a lot, and produce more food with more in the environment.  So, there's a negative feedback loop with carbon dioxide.  The more you pump into the air, the faster it is removed, so it won't increase forever unless we kill plants and don't give them a chance to do what they want.

More to the point, there are a bunch of CA groupies who love to say how wonderful this machine is, but, in reality, it's been tested, and found wanting.  It's poorly constructed (so much so that one of the owners had to change his vacs back to stock, because the body was flexing too much when he upgraded the motors, and he was afraid it would break), and has many ergonomic flaws as indicated in the testing done on TruckMountForums.  I didn't agree with all of the criticisms, but, most are irrefutable. 

You'll also notice how this group loves to deal in generalities, instead of producing hard numbers which would back up their claims of how powerful this machine is.  You'll get so and so saying this, bold claims of being in business for so many years, claims of envy from others, but no facts.  They deal in smoke and mirrors, and avoid cold, hard facts that would quantify the performance.  Try getting a number from them, like CFM, or lift, and you'll get fluff, distortion, and obfuscation.  You'll get an anecdote, possibly real, from someone.  You won't get numbers.  

Performance IS quantifiable.  It's not like arguing which girl is prettier, or which peach tastes better.  But, when tested, the Recoil showed poor performance.  So, they say it was a bum machine.  So the forum owner offered to pay for anyone to ship their machine to him for testing, including Mr. Valentine, to show the performance.  Of course, nothing came of it.  They know the performance is bad, and would prefer to say something is wrong with the machine.   If they send another machine, people will realize the machine isn't a good performer, by design.

This is not to say it can't clean a carpet, just there are cheaper choices (M5) that are better.

Now, Ed Valentine and I argue often, but to say he wouldn't properly support his machine sounds pretty foolish.  If he had something I wanted(his booster is certainly an attractive product), I'd have no fear of purchasing something from him.  From these rabid groupies, you can safely say his customer service should not be brought into question.

The Recoil, on the other hand ...

Ed,

You know, reading your posts has shown an interesting pattern, and I'll give you some friendly advice, or really remind you of something you already know.

When you start calling people idiots, despite what you think you're saying, you're calling yourself one.  You look smaller by using childish insults, even if you think they are deserved.  Don't lose your composure or dignity anymore, it does not help your business at all.  I wouldn't buy from someone that threw around childish insults.

Also, based on your, at best, remedial command of English, I would say he's probably smarter than you.  Stay away from that argument, and stick to the machine.  There's nothing good for you there.

I'm guessing from your design choices, you'd never own stock, and would rather keep your money in a bank, where it's guaranteed.  Your machine is built that way.  I guess you figure that's quality, and I guess I can understand it, even though I don't agree with it.  You made very conservative choices, because you value the machine working all the time as being very, very critical, and in as many situations as possible, at the expense of performance.  It seems your choices for vacuum motors were dominated by fear of blowing circuits.  After all, if the machine isn't working, you can't make money, and that's what it's all about.  

But, on the other hand, a more powerful vacuum system saves a lot of time, and there are generators for those stubborn situations where electrical conditions simply aren't cooperating.  

I'm also confused why you'd add a two-stage booster in parallel, when this should lower the lift of the machine, which already is the weakness.  I know this makes sense from an electrical perspective - use it when electrical situations permit, but I'm curious why you didn't choose a low amperage higher lift vac (at the expense of CFM), so wouldn't lose lift at all, and gain some, while still gaining (albeit less) CFM.

I know you don't want to offer a more powerful version because it would make your existing one less appealing, and I'm sure with your conservative nature, you'd prefer that to be your main product.  Also, the tanks buckling in probably place some limit on the power, but, at the same time, there is a benefit to selling a more powerful machine to people that really want it.  

So, I think I found something that might be useful.  I'm sure the body could handle a good 20% more power (the guy that was worried about buckling went considerably higher), and probably 30%.  Now, you wouldn't want this on your website because I'm sure you don't want this as your main machine ( how many people would want the "weaker" machine, after all), so I suggest you sell this machine as a special order only.  Don't advertise it on the website, unless you want to just mention machines can be custom configured, and then have people call you for more information.  This way you'd have a good idea if it makes sense.  You could also make it known on forums this higher powered machine could be sold, and again you'd have the benefit of talking to the person and ascertaining if it makes sense, without creating buyer reluctance towards your main machine, for people buying from the internet.

Ed,

I don't know what you're talking about, but that's probably because you're wrong about something.

I don't really know what ICS is, other than I've heard it's a forum as well.  So, to answer your question directly, no.

If you weren't a paranoid little man, you'd realize I wasn't being negative.  I don't even want you to go away, I want you to make a better machine.  That's my only motive.

People often view other's actions through their own eyes, and bestow motivation based on that, so you pretty clearly indicate what your motives would be.  But, I have no motivation beyond what I've said.  

I've answered your question directly, why can't you answer mine?  Can't you answer one question directly, instead of your normal vague nonsense?  Do you think no one notices that you can't answer a question?  

Lastly, I don't have a problem with you arguing with people, but when you start calling them idiots, that's where it gets childish.  You don't see the difference?  In reality, you're  not a smart guy at all, and you'd be calling someone an idiot?  Seems kind of strange.  Why take it to that level?  That's like a 5'4" man that can't jump turning something into a slam-dunk contest.  

Canoer, I have no idea what you're talking about.  I don't really read that forum much, because it doesn't work with my browser well (Opera), but I'm pretty sure you're making it up, since the admins on that board were the ones that concluded the performance of the Recoil was relatively poor, and even offered to prove it by paying for a unit to be shipped to them.  And since I never claimed to be an expert, and I'm not in conflict with their beliefs, I'd be forced to conclude you're wrong.  I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time.

It's nice you have sympathy for the man, but what about Locko?  He was compromised by the sub-standard performance of this machine, and not for the first time.  That's a really lousy feeling to be stuck in, especially by a machine that's so expensive.

Also, I've given him a good solution for his problems, but instead of looking into it, he gets defensive and angry.

No doubt his sales are tanking based on his responses here.  Happy people don't throw tantrums like this, so he's obviously stressed out.  But, that doesn't give him an excuse to be so dreadfully ugly in his posts.  His temper tantrums are downright effeminate.

I don't want to see him go out of business, but unless he can realize what a weak product he's got, and then work to improve it, he's going to be in big trouble.  This is the internet age, and he's still trying to use disinformation and obfuscation to keep people off-balance, and hide the inherent inferiority of what he's selling.  

He's got to be more honest and open, or he'll keep going down.  He might be too old (maybe even a dotard) to turn this ship around in time.  If so, he's got to turn the company over to someone more competent and forward thinking, who won't reminisce about older days, and instead make improvements.

Disinformation and a very loyal customer base are both valuable assets in his situation, but it's dangerous to rely on them completely.  You need a good product too.

You have a point about Locko. I think he wrote that post on the evening that he returned home from that business fiasco, a woozy and beaten man. I don't think I have ever seen a man so angry at a machine before...LOL. Apparently he left the carpet soaked and felt horribly about it.

Ed,

Another temper tantrum from the effeminate junk maker?  

I've tried to stay at least cordial, but it's not too hard to throw insults as someone with a sub-normal IQ, that can't answer a question directly.

Unlike you, I don't lie.  I don't have a carpet cleaning business, but that's not to say I don't clean carpets, and have never been working in it.  In fact, I own rental properties, and I do the carpets myself, and have relatives in the industry, who do own businesses.  So, my interest is real, and it's only about finding the best equipment.

Your motives are much less honorable.  You talk in nonsense, and generalities.  I made allowances for the fact you're a simpleton with roughly the mental processes of a bright German Shepherd, but that doesn't fully explain your unwillingness to answer questions, and talk without acrimonious replies.  You clearly show you aren't about meaningful discussion and dissemination of information.  It's all about sales for you, and since you lack a decent product (I do like your booster, but I am referring to the Recoil), you have to play these silly games and hope no one figures it out.

But, Ed, your machine was weighed and measured and found wanting.  It wasn't by me.  It had slightly less power than a machine that could be bought for less than $1500, which also had a more solid body.  When people said the machine was flawed, the forum owner offered to pay for another to be sent to him for testing.  You never did that, huh, Ed?  Why not?  Also, flaw after flaw was pointed out.  Again, not by me.  

So, man up and send a machine.  I know this goes against your penchant for dissembling and evading, but, really, why not end the argument?  I can answer that - because it would end with you losing.  

But, now post on about how you've been in business, or someone somewhere has an agenda, or someone is working for someone else.  You just sound like a dotard.  I'm asking you to accept a challenge to have your machine measured.  How does that equate to your tirades from your tantrums?  I'm not asking for anything unreasonable.  You're acting unreasonably.

Ken,

This fool is attempting to actually scare us, so we won't say what we think.  It's always funny to have this type of person try manipulation, because it just makes them look silly.

But, more to the point, why don't you tell us what you think of the Recoil.  I already know this answer to this, but maybe other people would be curious.  Be honest and let us know, if you don't mind. 

Do you think the numbers TMF came with were out of line?

What do you think of Ed's, or any other Recoil owner's, unwillingness to send another, free of charge to be measured?

What do you think of the body construction of the Recoil?  

What about his selection of vac motors?  How about the booster?  What's your feeling about what effect this has on lift?  

I wouldn't dare ask Ed all these questions, because he doesn't like to answer meaningful ones, but I know from talking to you, you are never afraid of questions, and like it when people challenge something you said.  But, then, you're much more confident.

It's not clear to me that he has one to give, based on his disposition.

There's one difference between Ed V. and Mr. Ed.  Mr. Ed spoke with his mouth.  Ed V seems to speak out the other end.

IMO part of the reason the Recoil comes under attack so much(yes not just by the couple of guys on this board) is because of the value for the money. When you charge $3195 for a portable people have higher expectations for it than when a machine costs around $2000. If a manufacturer is going to charge double this price for a machine not made any better they should expect a few knocks from the buying public. Offer products that offer exordinary value for the money and this will not be a problem.

Ken, I think the Recoil comes under attack for several reasons. One is because of the bombastic buffoonery that goes on about the machine from Coil cult members. They proclaim that it is God's gift to portable carpet cleaning when this is obviously not true and this instigates a lot of negativity. Another reason that the Coil is the subject of so much negative attention is because of the way that Mr Ed presents himself, lashing out like a rabid animal every time the Recoil is criticized. First, the guy presents himself as a pure phony, pretending he is a nice, country fellow. Once there is some tension in the air, he whips his mane and bucks like a rabid mule, sprinkling out insults like a rice-heaving bride.

Have you even seen the video which showed a Recoil 3XPS with a 2HT propane heater

Mr. Ed,

Good job in coming out with yet another anecdotal quote!  That's so convincing!  It's so unheard of from you (I'm psychic, that's why I predicted it in an earlier post, it's not that you're simple or predictable).

And to the idiot that suggest that someone that hates the Recoil should buy it - please don't breed.  Let's see, I don't like sardines, but I think I'll go buy some.  Like $2700 worth.  What rocks do they find you clowns from under.

Oh, and Alexander, the reason we post is because other people keep posting.  You guys just don't stop, and attempt to dominate a forum that way.  I respect your tenacity, but, sadly, you're backing a losing argument, so you lose anyway.  

Just look at your fearless leader.  He actually thinks anecdotes (which can be made up, and even if they aren't are meaningless) are substantial and important data.  I could find 100 people that love a Hoover Steamvac, and go on about it, but it's worthless.  This is how you know Mr. Ed has no argument.  

This stuff about Mytee is too vague to be useful.  What parts are cheap?  The body is much better made, that's for sure.  Ed uses substandard materials that flex badly and, at least in two documented cases cracked and/or had a hole.  Ed uses a superior pump, that's for sure, but then uses inferior power lines, etc...  I heard a few people complain the Mytee electrical system is horrid, though, but who knows how true that is.  It's not something provable or not, but, maybe someone who's knowledgeable can open one up and see if they use inferior electrical wiring, or such.  

The flaws with the Recoil are very well known, and have been pointed out beyond a shadow of the doubt.  The Mytee machines are criticized with vague remarks and anecdotes.  Neither are convincing.  I hope those critical of the machine will open it up and point out where all the problems are, so we can really know it's not just made up nonsense.

I will say this - I looked at the Air Hog, and it looks pretty worthless.  It's nice that it's portable and all, and can be used a standalone unit, or as a booster, but that's where it ends.  It has no pump!  So, you have to buy a Water Hog unless you want to use faucet pressure.  So, what's the point of this???  As a booster, it can only be used in parallel!  So, for all the folks who have portables with vacs in series,  you get to lose lift.  Oh joy!  Also, it's got two vac lines in the back, but when I looked at the manual, the top one is always closed.  Maybe I read it wrong, but I can't figure out why you'd put that in, if you always were going to close it.  And then, you hook up the water pressure cable from the main portable, to the booster, to the wand.  Why?  It doesn't boost the water pressure, since it doesn't have a pump.  It adds setup time.  Yay!  This product truly sucks, and this was the "booster" everyone was waiting for.  It fails as a booster, since it's overly complex (setup takes too long) and can't be used in series, and fails as a small portable because it has no pump.  It's expensive too.  What were they thinking????

I don't know why Ed is the only one that realizes it's important to make an inline booster be able to work in series or parallel.  If you've got a portable with motors in series, you don't want to create a hole, and if you've got a portable with parallel vacs, you might need the extra lift for certain situations.  But, nope, just keep making them parallel only and hope no one knows the difference.  For $900, the Air Hog should do both, and have a 100 PSI pump so you can use it well for small jobs and upholstery, without having to set up the Water Hog too.   

Ken,

When will your 4-vac machine be available?  

Also, when looking at vac motors, what opening size would you say is the most relevant for most carpet jobs?  I realize that it's not a simple answer, and would depend on situations, but what range is the most meaningful.

Sadly, most people go by the maximum CFM (with 2 inch opening) and Lift (no air movement), which I am finding is not the whole answer, and do not directly correspond to air watts, since air watts peak somewhere in between these two.  For most carpets, which diameter opening do you think is most relevant when looking at vac motors?  

The reason I mention this is, I was looking at the 116765-OD to replace my 116765-13s, and although the maximum values are not hugely difference, the "powerband" is very different, with much stronger values at the 1.5 inch to .5 inch range.  I can't find what the so-called LMB2A is, since no Ametek vacs seem to match the spec that Larry Cobb and Mytee use, so I'm skeptical about the numbers being posted for it.  Maybe you can give some information on that, too.

Thanks.

There are a number of cheaper choices that do that, and in some cases, you'll lose lift.

My portable is 2 3-stages in series.  If I use this "booster", I lose lift.  So, it's not restoring full vacuum power, it's trading off CFM for lift.  When Locko was complaining about the lack of lift of the Recoil, compared to his Eclipse, if he had a booster that only boosts CFM, well, he's out of luck.  The M5 shouldn't have much lift either, so, if you need more, Ed's will do the trick, the Mytee Air Hog will not.  

Here's my question, if you're going to pay $900 for a booster, wouldn't you rather have one that can be used in series and in parallel?  The Mytee is supposed to double as a standalone, but realistically, without a pump, this is of very limited utility.  If you need to add a Water Hog for it to work, it's not so portable anymore, and not so quick.

That's the only thing it does the CA doesn't, and it's not useful.  Being able to work in parallel, or series, makes the product not only useful with more portables, but also in more situations.  For the same price, I don't think the Mytee is nearly as useful.  Of course, if he added a small pump, and gave this that advantage, then you'd have a more difficult choice.  Hopefully, Ed or Mytee will make one that can be used as a standalone (with a real pump) for small jobs, or upholstery, and be able to use it in series and parallel.  I think this type of unit would sell like crazy, as you'd have many reasons to buy it, and would become seemingly indispensable after getting used to having it.  

Do you all want me to go away? I personally didn't come here to stir

Have you been sniffing glue, or are you naturally that stupid?  

What's any of this got to do with bonnet cleaning?  I thought we were talking about the virtues, or lack thereof, of the Recoil XPS.  You use this with your bonnet cleaning?

The sign of a weak argument is when you make it about the messenger, and not the message.  All the cons of the machine have been detailed and listed, but you don't really touch those, and neither does Ed.  You guys try to make it about people, which is much more subjective.  

I did notice yesterday Ed does have something close to the booster I thought was ideal.  It doubles as a portable, and has a 100 PSI pump.  All good.  But, he just misses because it's only set up to boost CFM, at least according to his website.  

If this could be used in series like his pure booster, this thing would be an extremely attractive product.  It's still not bad, by any means, and neither is his pure booster, but it would be perfect if you could get it all.  I don't know why he removed that feature when going from the booster to the booster/small portable, but I hope he finds a way to add it back.

"Prime the Porty"? What are you referring to? He had problems with weak vacuum power not being able to extract water from the carpet. While Locko is not the expert that some think he is, he certainly has enough common sense to ascertain whether or not his machine is overwetting the carpet.