Ron: CFMs of air flow come from water lift. No pressure differential between atmospheric pressure outside a wand or vacuum orifice and inside it, mean no air movement or cfms. Lift is the key to how much cfms can be created in a system under load or resistance. The carpet is a very serious resistance to a portable machine with one motor because it does not generate high lift to overcome this resistance, but add 2 three stage motors in series and the lift goes up and so does the airflow (cfms) as well. Hope that helps you.

Superglide Ken

rmarkham,

I am sure you will get many explanations on your answer. But to totally understand the proper answer you may need to first understand airflow and the physics involved. Most explanations I have heard have never really satisfied me in layman's terms. Maybe Ed Valentine could help here.

Most sales in our showroom are made by customers seeing if the open vacuum cuff will stick to their palm. Which incidentally is not good for the casing of your machine.

Carpet cleaning extractor have become more and more powerful over the years and yes lots of changes for the better.

NOW wands are a different story.

We basically started in the 60's with squirt and suck and we are still there. I for one am sure that someone with aerodynamics and wind tunnel ability could build a more efficient wand.

Now why has no one stepped up to the plate? Simply because we are looked on as a small chicken sh** industry.

The big inventor thinkers are looking at computer and high end etc, etc.
And the icing on the cake is that 50% of our market would steal your idea after you put up the money for R&D. They would sell it for nothing.

Sorry if I seem sour, but I have been around a long time and seen how it works.

Ted has got it right about how it is. He has been in this industry for 31 years now and I have been here for 26 years, and we have both seen how it works. It is not a pretty sight at times.However, I am doing something to improve the wands out there. I started with the glides first, because the greatest restriction on the wand is at the WCI(wand/carpet interface). In other words, where the carpet meets the lips of the wand. This is where the greatest improvement can be made, and if adding a glide here can improve it as much as it does, that is a great start. But I have gone further than that. I am having a new type of wand built called the KH3 Titanium Wand. It is handbuilt to make it aerodynamic in the way air moves thru it, just like the way Ted is asking for. It will move up to 300 cfms with the big machines with the 5 series blowers , on the carpet! No other wand in the industry can do this. It sells for $1299 in Canada. In the future some of this technology will make it down to SS wands that sell for under $1000. But first they will have to steal it from me.

OK,back to CFMs. Laymans terms it is. High pressure always flows to low pressure, so to get the air to move into your wand(cfms), you need to create a lower pressure inside it(lift) than the pressure that exists outside the wand(atmospheric pressure). The low pressure(lift) is created by one of 2 ways, either an electric vacuum motor(s), or a large positive displacement blower. For purposes of this discussion, I will only consider the electric vacuum(s) as the source creating the lift here.

The atmospheric pressure will only enter the wandhead if there is enough lift(low pressure) generated because the carpet is pushed up to the lips of the wand while you clean creating a restriction to air movement. Full atmosheric pressure is just over 400" of waterlift(waterlift BTW, is the height that air pressure can raise a tube of water off the floor in a sealed glass tube if there was perfect vacuum at the top of the tube), but you do not need to create anything like this amount to do good cleaning. A singe 3 stage vacuum motor can create up to 140" WL(Water Lift), but this will only get about 30 cfms(cubic feet of air/minute) to move into the wand. Manufacturers know this, so build vacuum systems that puts 2 motors together in series(one vacuum feeding into another vacuum) to generate greater lift to move even more cfms(air) during cleaning. Two 3 stage motors in series will give you about 200" of waterlift or more, and cause 50 to 60 cfms of airflow(depending on carpet type) because the greater lift the wand has now, causes the air to rush into the wand much faster than before.Incidently, this also causes better cleaning and dryer carpets too. The air pressure inside both the hose and wand is now only half that of the atmospheric pressure outside it, so even the dense carpet at the wands lips does not slow the air down much. This is the reason you want to buy a machine that has high lift. Get the lift right and the cfms(airflow) take care of themselves. Only practical way(low cost) to improve them still more is put a glide on the wand(mine of course).

The reason that most cleaners do not understand this area very well is :

a) You can't explain it well in only a few sentences

b) most cleaners either never took or paid enough attention in science class

c) Not many good teachers around that can put things into laymans language so you don't need to be a rocket scientist to get it

Well this is as long an explanation as this 2 finger typer wants to give.

Thanks Ken,

Your explanation of lift vs. cfm through comparing the atmospheric pressure outside of the wand to the pressure inside of the wand may be a crock of sh** as I was one who did not pay attention in school. But it is the most simple and plausible explanation I have heard yet. KISS Principle (Keep it simple stupid).

I wonder if most of us are in the cleaning business because we were poor students and skipped school. Do you know of any one who actually completed a university education with full intent to enter the cleaning industry? Actually I do have a university education and don't know how the heck I got here. As doug would say "It must have been the Hide"

I am missing doug already.

rmarkham,

I am no where near as scientific as Ken or Ted for that matter, but I can share with you my own personal experience where portables are concerned anyway. In even more basic or layman's terms I suppose. Ken and Ted, you are more than welcome to reply and better explain this as I am only reporting on what I have been told and seen for myself.

A good engineer friend put it in layman's terms for me in saying the cfm works well when the flow is open such as in a regular vacuum cleaner with a wider nozzle. I have also noticed the flood machines seem to focus more on cfm than lift as well. I suppose because the water flowing through in larger quantities benefits from the cfm more than lift.

I was also told by this friend that when the flow is sealed off (as in the case of a regular carpet wand on commercial or low nap carpet) then the cfm is drastically reduced and water lift takes over.

I had never heard before that cfm comes from your waterlift or anything about the outside pressure verses inside pressure on the wand so as I said before, I am a dunce compared to these more technological people, but I can add this much.

I have used a great many vacuums, portables and have put different vacuums in series and parellel in working with these vacuums and my own prototype casing while working on my new Challenger systems and my experience has been just what my friend has said.

I have increased the cfm somewhat by increasing my hose diameter and am looking forward to trying one of Ken's glides as well. Currently I am putting some some holes just above the lip of my wand to see if that helps.

I know other people talk down water lift and up on cfm, but I have a vacuum with 200 cfm and while it does a fantastic job picking up water off a hard surface floor, I am not that pleased with the drying I am getting on carpets. Waterlift has given me much better drying times unless the carpet itself has some raised areas helping the cfm.

Most carpet provide a seal however, especially on commercial carpet. While a better wand may be the answer or the glides, I can't help, but wonder if simply allowing a slight bit more air to enter the wand won't help the cfm as well.

I have a post I started called something like Superglide and OP cleaning as I had questions regarding this very thing. Hopefully this helps and doesn't add more to your confusion.

For me, I am going to wait until I have more time to digest all this technical stuff because Ken was over my head even with his simple layman's explanation. I ditched way too much school I guess. To many brain cells burnt before I met Big Daddy Jesus I guess.

Be blessed and I still am curious to hear about anyone who has found a way to get better drying times with cfm and little lift.

By the way Ken, you never have contacted me with a discount OEM price on your glides. mailto:van@cleantileandcarpet.com - van@cleantileandcarpet.com

Will also have a toll free number back up directly.

I agree with Ted on alot of his comments in this thread. As usual, he is always to the point without all the unneccesary filler material.

CFM's and Air-Flow can easily be explained in a very simple explaination. And, since we have pioneered this aspect at the beginning way back in 1978, I will eventually perhaps, start a new thread on that subject alone.

Right, now, however, (as my good friend, Ted would understand) these tired old fingers are getting a little cramped pounding the key board.

I will pass for right now......................................

Thanks, Gentlemen.

Good Fortune to Straight Talk;

Ed Valentine

Cross-American Corp.

If you go to http://www.kleenkuip.com/ - our site or better yet http://www.kleenkuip.com/wands_and_hand_tools/cfr_carpetCleaningTools.htm - click here for CFR wands and tools . You will find products that in my estimation are aerodynamically designed for cleaners. The problem is they are very effective but overpriced for the average carpet cleaner when comparing it to an average PMF wand.

Actual tools and machines last for years and cost pennies per day. Look at labor and advertising. That's the high cost in our industry. Gas, trucks, rent, telephones, advertising, insurance etc. All of these makes your chemical and equipment long term cost almost insignificant.

Ken;

You have been in this Industry long enough to recognize who was one of the major pioneer and Professor of CFM's/Airflow because that is exactly where you acquired some of that knowledge. 

 Like Ted Harding , who developed and introduced to this industry, his handtool design---way ahead of anyone else---that would benefit the Professional Cleaner {a deserving credit that he never fully received in MHO, because there were others who pounded their chests in an effort to take away the credit instead), we are likewise, very proud of the fact that "We" accomplished , developed, and engineered the first High-Performance CFM/Air-flow concepts in a carpet cleaning machine that could go the distance. AND, that is exactly what I built this business on for 28 years now, and that is what we are known for.

Mr. Lee Stockwell, whom you know very well, is another longtime professional in this business. Below is part of a letter he wrote to us recently upon his visit proving what I mentioned above (for those who do not know me)

Posted By http://www.i-boards.com/ics/profile.asp?UserID=305 - Lee Stockwell on 10/1/2004 at 6:49 PM

It was great to finally shake your hand after knowing you for so long. In 1978 I talked to Ed and his longtime employee Jim, just before we bought our first Bane unit. Ed was gracious and helpful anyway. As it turned out his advice was right on the mark then...just as it is now.

I admire the Valentines about as much as anyone in the industry, and if you ever visit him in Ann Arbor you will know why.

He patented the first practical vacuum booster decades ago. The early ones were all metal with 2" ports. His new ones are the best yet. I'm surprised more cleaners don't know about them.

He has also championed CFM long before it was "cool" to do so. Give Ed credit when you see the "me too" machines coming out lately. The new electronics needed to tweak maximum performance out of electric motors was very interesting. I reminded him as he was showing me the components that I had and electrical engineering background, and that I recognized them even without the insignia. I won't tip his hand though.

______________________________________________________

In conclusion my  friend, do not attempt to convey to others, or pull up the covers on my personal knowledge and history of CFM and the development of Air-Flow.

Wishing you and your company the best;

Good Fortune to;

Ed Valentine

Cross-American Corp.

Ken,

Here are some questions for you to answer.....

HAVE YOU PAID DON COOK BACK YET????

Can you give me some hard test methods and data to back up your claims?

How do you like to cook the chickens you have out back?

Chuck:

Some answers for you!

None of your Business

I could , but I wont.

How do you cook your chickens without burning down that boat you live on or melting those blow up sex dolls you have on it???? lol

in kenspeak that means

NO

I have no idea how to do that and I'm LYING about my claims!

I'm a LOSER

BTW, If I want to cook somthing on the boat I use the stove on the galley or the BBQ on the stern pulpit.  The dolls are only in your mind!

Are people still sending money to this guy?

Beware.

I think he means Ken

I just sent over $600 to Ken last week

2 days later I received what I ordered

it was a terrible experience

as far as the cfm thing.........I have no explanation really,I do know that most manufacturer's ratings on their machines cfm and hg are over blown.

both my machines (Compact 47& Powermatic) are well under 400cfm run at 14hg and do a great job of extracting and cleaning.

Sadly, there are almost as many ripped-off customers as there were sales for a while.  I see where he now has three or four who are at this point cheering him on.  I know too many good people who are in the first group.

Ken is a smart guy and at times has a good bit of charisma....both gifts that should have made him a success. A few years ago when he was in a bipolar "high" on the boards I even phoned him up a couple of times to try to reason with him on his self-destructive behaviour.  Each time it worked for a day or so. 

I feel badly for his family that his unresolved insecurities led him into letting his good senses be swamped by his unrestrained actions and words.  I still believe a basically good guy is in there...somewhere.  On the other hand I can't let friends be unwarned about his trail. 

I'd only buy his product thru a distributor with the muscle and deep pockets to protect the buyer.

Thanks,

Lee

ken is a fool nothing more than a fool

Z