cfm and water lift
Printed From: Carpet Cleaning Forum
Category: Carpet Cleaners Discussion
Forum Name: Portable Carpet Steam Cleaning Machines
Forum Description: Discuss anything relating to portable carpet cleaning machines
URL: https://www.kleenkuip.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4724
Printed Date: 02/May/2024 at 12:51pm
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Topic: cfm and water lift
Posted By: rick007
Subject: cfm and water lift
Date Posted: 11/February/2008 at 9:29pm
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i was talking to a dealer who sells and services ninja machines and he said that with a porty higher water lift was more important than cfm. what do you think ? i want to use a 360. ------------- happy cleaning |
Replies:
Posted By: Superglide Ken
Date Posted: 12/February/2008 at 1:46am
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For short hoses length up to 25 ft he is correct. Since most portables only produce 30 cfms of airflow under working conditions, it is better to concentrate on lift. However if you are going to run 50 to 200 ft of hose, that 30 cfm that series produces will not be adequete to move the air fast enough in the hose because of the increase volume of air that needs to be moved. At that point it is better to concentrate on cfm production.Lift goes down, but air movement goes up.
A 360 will work well with any 2, 3,or 4 vac portable. Series or parallel vac placement. ------------- Inventor of the Teflon Wand Glide and the Turboteck Rotary Air Duct Cleaners for TMs. |
Posted By: John L
Date Posted: 16/February/2008 at 12:33pm
200ft........ .... 50psi.....
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Posted By: splash_$$$_dash
Date Posted: 16/February/2008 at 3:23pm
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Ken what was your major in University? ------------- 
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Posted By: cmaster
Date Posted: 17/February/2008 at 1:00am
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Abnormal Psych.....he was the class example ------------- 
The STD Meter |
Posted By: Superglide Ken
Date Posted: 17/February/2008 at 4:31am
Chemical Engineering ------------- Inventor of the Teflon Wand Glide and the Turboteck Rotary Air Duct Cleaners for TMs. |
splash_$$$_dash wrote:Posted By: FriendlyHammer
Date Posted: 17/February/2008 at 6:56pm
Kenny is full of bull, again. The best machine always attempts to balance cfm and waterlift. Cfm gets the air out of the tank so that waterlift can take over. With vacuums in parallel, the air doesn't get out of the fast enough when cleaning most carpets. Therefore, a balanced machine will always be parallel, unless you're talking about a single motor or two 2-stage vacuums, perhaps.
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Posted By: B Rice
Date Posted: 18/February/2008 at 3:29pm
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If anyone has time...Need a quik post class on cfm/waterlift and parallel/series...
Thanks!!! ------------- http://www.PanhandleFloorCare.com - http://www.PanhandleFloorCare.com http://www.Pensacola-Carpet-Cleaning.com - http://www.Pensacola-Carpet-Cleaning.com |
Posted By: B Rice
Date Posted: 18/February/2008 at 3:44pm
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I've read a few other articles on the subjects, still don't completlly get it? ------------- http://www.PanhandleFloorCare.com - http://www.PanhandleFloorCare.com http://www.Pensacola-Carpet-Cleaning.com - http://www.Pensacola-Carpet-Cleaning.com |
Posted By: Ed Valentine
Date Posted: 18/February/2008 at 4:40pm
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Yes, so do I !!
Ed Valentine
(professor at large)
cross-american corp.
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Posted By: Superglide Ken
Date Posted: 18/February/2008 at 4:42pm
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Parallel is NOT always the way to go. The best way to measure vac motors is UNDER load, not NO Load conditions. You don't clean that way. you clean with the equivalent of a 3/4" opening. That produces approx a lift of 70"WL and 30 cfm from a single 3 stage vac motor with 25 ft of hose connected operating thru a wand cleaning on the carpet. If you were to run 2 of those vacs in parallel, you would NOT double your vacuums under those operating parameters. Your lift would only rise to 80"WL but your cfm would still be only about 40. Why? Because the resistance at the wand/carpet interface is so strong that without an increase in lift, not much additional air can make it thru there.
If instead the 2 vacuums are in series, the lift will rise to 130"WL, and CFM rises to 50 cfms. That is because the air pressure differential between the air outside the wand(atmospheric)and inside the wand is now greater, causing more air to enter the wand. The resistance at the WCI is the same, but the ability to overcome it has been increased. So now you know why the Ninja is hooked up in series, not parallel. It works better. Century did extensive testing on both configurations before deciding and PROVING that series works best. ------------- Inventor of the Teflon Wand Glide and the Turboteck Rotary Air Duct Cleaners for TMs. |
Posted By: John L
Date Posted: 18/February/2008 at 5:49pm
Hmmmmmm... Thats Y i bought a TM...
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Posted By: FriendlyHammer
Date Posted: 18/February/2008 at 7:50pm
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Kenny is smoking crack again. In a system that has 200 cfm, 30 cfm is only 15%. The waterlift is barely affected. In a series, the max cfm is 100 with no load. If you have 50 cfm leaking into the system, you've reduced your waterlift by about 50%. Hence the confusion on Kenny's part.
I have 3 of 13 machines that can be quickly confingured to be in parallel or series. I have yet to find a guy that wants to use their machine in anything but parallel. I leave that decision up to them.
If they were using weaker motors, the situation might be different.
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Posted By: baires
Date Posted: 18/February/2008 at 8:05pm
| Ok, now we have a better idea about the cfm and water lift. So the question is what are the numbers that we need, to keep the balance betwen boths if you are planning to run a porty with 75 ft of 1 1/2" recovery hose to have the best performance posibble. |
Posted By: John L
Date Posted: 18/February/2008 at 9:08pm
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My first 3 portables were in series.. The last one was in parallel.. No matter which one you run i would still keep your hose runs as short as possible..
This leaving it in the Van is rediculous.. Unless you have a booster in line..
Longer hose runs means you have to do more dry stokes.. slower dry strokes.. Farther to haul your water and dump it.. This takes up alot of time..
And for crying out loud DON'T leave it in the van when it is very cold out.. You will not like all your window froze up on the inside from the exhaust moisture.. Been there done that..
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Posted By: FriendlyHammer
Date Posted: 18/February/2008 at 9:21pm
Ideally, you want to increase both waterlift and cfm in that scenerio. However, boosters do one or the other. Your hose diameter is fine, but if you go up to 300 or more cfm, a 2" will start to make a difference, especially over the length closest to the machine. The rest of the answer depends upon the strength of the vacuums in your extractor.
I also recommend modifying machines so that they can run both series and parallel, as needed. Series, for example, is a lot more usefull in flood cleanup.
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Posted By: Johnsmith808
Date Posted: 23/February/2008 at 5:10am
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All I can talk about is my personal experience. I have a Diamonback with dual 3 stage-vacs. The came in a series with a 1.5" port. I've used this machine like this for 5 years or so. After getting advice from Friendly, I decided to switch them over to parallel. Not only that, I opened up the 1.5" to a full 2", and put a cool cuff male starter cuff in the hole instead of a 2" barb, which actually isn't even 2". All I can say is that the vacs are screaming now instead of sufficating in each other. It doesn't even sound like the same machine. The vac power seems significantly better than before. I can switch it back to series pretty easily, but I don't think I ever will. I though about adding a 3rd 3 stager. Steambrite sells a vacuum booster than takes the place of your 6" recovery tank lid. They also sell a dryer plug adapter that will allow you to plug in up to 4-15amp plugs. I have decided not to do this at the moment, mainly because I intend on pursuing more commercial accounts, which would render that dryer adapter useless. It may be a good option to have that booster, just in case one of your 3 stagers gives out at a job. By the way, if you are not running one of your vacs configured in parallel, I think you need to cover the exhaust hole of the vac not in use, otherwise air will be pulling through that vac. |
Posted By: FriendlyHammer
Date Posted: 24/February/2008 at 9:30pm
Yep, that screaming sound indicates that you're actually getting all the waterlift you paid for. The tank is actually empty of air for the first time. Keep experimenting and let me know what you learn. |
Posted By: sfath1975
Date Posted: 21/April/2012 at 4:47pm
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Posted By: sfath1975
Date Posted: 21/April/2012 at 5:09pm
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FriendlyHammer you need to change your name or chill out. This site is ment to be helpful. Saying someone is smoking crack just say your point and prove them wrong. Please let me see if I am reading your replies correct. Are you saying CFM is more important than Lift? If so 99.99% of the articles I read it states you would want better lift then CFM since lift actually will suck more water out of the carpet where CFM is air flow. There is many store brands that the lift is just as good as the professional truck mounts. Like the Hoover MaxExtract Dual V Carpet Cleaner, Garnet-F7411900. The link is below. http://www.best-carpetcleaners.org/hoover-maxextract-dual-v-carpet-cleaner-garnet-f7411900/ CFM is the amount of air being moved, or rather, the amount of "fluid mixture" (in our case, recovered solution and airflow, combined). Lift is the force available to move it. It really is very much like a mirror image of pressure and GPM. Pressure is the force that's moving the fluid, and GPM is the amount being moved. Again unless I read it wrong lift is more important if you want all the water out off your carpet. |