I am in NO way an advocate for harsh or dangerous chemicals, but at times drastic situations require drastic measures.

Unlike what Jim Darling states Butyl will never be banned here in Canada or the States, I can see Europe banning it though.

Jim, with all due respect, you are no more a " GREEN CLEAN " advocate than George Bush is an anti war advocate, your business is " CHEMICALS " hence the name of your company " CHEMSPEC " ( I'm just guessing, but I would tend to believe it means CHEMICAL SPECIALITIES OR SPECIALISTS ) Jim you are a salesman /Businessman first and foremost Green Clean advocate if the price is right and the bottom line profit margin is suffice to market Green Clean products. I can see that reflection just by looking at all the other products you market, promote & sell.

Butyl is widely used in lots of products we enjoy today, such as paint, fabrication of plastics, oils, varnish, rust removers, window cleaners, degreasers, floor strippers and the list goes on.

Don Eldred is just a puppet tugging on his own strings  dancing & jumping to the popular opinion of whatever the music of the day is, or flavour of the week. I would like to see all the invoices of D.F.C that he has purchased over the last few months.

The tests and experiments that were performed to extract the data to the dangers of Butyl was to submit mice and rats to a 24 hour per day exposure to Butyl over a 104 day period @ a ratio of 225 ppm.

Male rats did not display any cancer activity even at these high ratio's, but on the other hands female rats did display small amounts of activity, sorry Lisa.

To sum up the controversay regarding Butyl is this :

ONLY THE DOSE MAKES THE POISON

Over exposure to anything is dangerous and should be avoided, and when I say this I also mean Vegitables, fruit, nuts, grains, the sun, wind, water, and all the pleasures of life such as sex, wine, food and parties.

                                    Nightrider

Jack - i can see that I missed a lot of your weekend fun. i have lots of responses to your post but probably just the facts.

1. Don Eldred is no puppet. If he wants to send you invoices then he probably will. This is not something i would do.

2. For most people, change is a tough thing to handle and hard to follow through on. The chemical industry is no different.

3. Do we make chemicals containing the nasty stuff? Of course we do. Will I continue to make and market them? of course i will. I'm sure you would agree that sometimes (maybe a lot of sometimes) in order to accomplish the task at hand you got to use whatever will do the job to the customer's satisfaction

4. i would respectively disagree with you that the dose makes the poison. The assumption in the chemical industry has always been that if "x" is the exposure limit, then anything less than "x" is OK. This has been proven wrong in many cases, the most notable is the case of NPE's ( Nonyl phenol ethoxylate). It is impossible to break these components down in any waste water treatment plant, and they end in the food chain. They are proven endocrine disruptors (reproduction thing) and as such have been banned in Europe, Toronto and many other places

5. As far as butyl is concerned, here are some links to the Federal Government. I'll let you read them and decide for yourself

http://www.ec.gc.ca/nopp/DOCS/consult/2Butoxyethanol/en/index.cfm - www.ec.gc.ca/nopp/DOCS/consult/2Butoxyethanol/en/index.cfm

http://www.ec.gc.ca/nopp/DOCS/consult/2Butoxyethanol/enrms3.cfm - www.ec.gc.ca/nopp/DOCS/consult/2Butoxyethanol/enrms3.cfm

6. I have said repeatedly and publicy that the green movement is not going away. As more and more scientific information comes out we will be forced to change. I strongly suspect that 10 years from now many of the cleaning solutions that we and all of my competitors make will not be the same. Time will tell if i am correct but in the meantime we will continue to market not only what the cleaning industry wants but also respond to the changes that are coming.

Looking forward to our coffee!

 Darn it - I tried the above links and they didn't work so I hope these ones do

That there is some interesting reading..............................

for Einstein.

Bottom line,

its nasty to humans when absorbed through the skin, not the air.

Thanks for the interesting reading ( nothing I didn't know already ) To all those who read it, what was your conclusion, still no mention of being banned,,,,,,,,,,,just afew fancy words like " Risk management "

Benzene:

It is a known bone-marrow poison, yet is widely used in combined with other chemicals in many personal care products, such as make up , hand cream,face masks, etc etc Causes adverse reactions, is carcinogenic, mutagenic and toxic.

  Here is a typical list on a jar of common hand cream: Water, - Stearic Acid, - Sorbitol, - Glycerin, - C-12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, - Sodium Borate - TEA, - Cetyl Alcohol, - Dimethicone, - Aloe Vera, - Phenoxyethanol, - Propylene Glycol, - Quince Extract, - Tocopheryl Acetate, - Potassium Sorbate, - EDTA, - Allantoin, - Methyl Paraben, - Propyl Paraben, - Butyl Paraben, - Menthol

Jim Darling, you surprise me. A man with your common sence and vast knowledge surely knows that the dose does make the poison. I hope you appreciate that fact the next time you are prescribed a drug from your doctor. Just by a fraction of a ml he can cure you or kill you.

Jim are you really that concerned about Butyl, or did you just lose out on some of Dow Chemical Company Stock Options.

Why don't you pick on and talk about Benzene which I am sure you use plenty of in your other products. Benzene unlike Butyl actually has lawsuits against the company and millions of dollars have already been paid out as proof of its hazards to humans.

Here's what Jim Darling is not telling you.

Do any of you dye carpets     ( Benzene is in dye )

Do any of you wash your clothes ( There's Benezen in it )

Do any of you at time take drugs & or prescription drugs ( you got it, contains Benezene )

Do any of you clean or have carpets in your house ( What a mistake you are breathing Benezene, and when your kids play on the carpet it enters the body by the friction of the skin )

Do you paint your house, that's right .........direct contact with Benzene.

Does your wife or you guys wear nylons, you have just been introduced to benezene

You guys wear condoms sometimes, not a good idea, mayby that's why your d**k gets soft so fast, you have just been exposed to benezene

Next time you fill up with gaz, that nice smell you like to take a sniff of every so often contains Benezene

I can go on all day, but I have other things to do

                               Nightrider.

DFC 105 purchases

June/ 2005   15 cases

May/2005     10 cases

April/2005     10 cases

March/2005   10 cases

Feb/2005      10 cases

Jan/2005       10 cases 

That is 65 cases so far in 2005, will not post invoices as it is no bodies business but mine as what I pay for products.

Don Eldred

Nightrider

Maybe you forgot about Charlie Huskilson. In 1986 he was the lead front man for DuPont when they introduced Stainmaster Carpets. He died from cancer (directly related to benzene.) Back then we knew nothing about the inherent risks. Today we know more

We use no dyes with benzene. There are too many different kinds of dyes for you and me to understand. I do know that ours are based on metalic salts except for our bowl and bath products which contain food dyes.

Whether you want to spin it your way or i want to spin it mine we can both accomplish the task

I would however, be careful on what you say publicly. To say all of the things that you said above about benzene are just not true. You never really know which litigator is watching this bulletin board ready to pounce. 

I am sure that we can both agree that we have different views on this matter and whenever you are in Toronto come on by for your coffee

Don, you are certainly a funny man. Me to I bought 200 cases from Ted but I don't want to show what I paid for it.

Why don't you make a photo copy, cut out or black out the price, just come clean with everyone here on the Kleenkuip site, put your money where your mouth is, show us all that you really use it.........do it just for the health of it

                                 Nightrider

It's all about CONTROL & DOMINATION ...Most of the time they have their

HERE ARE FACTS REGARDING BENEZENE AND THE INDUSTRIES THAT ARE CONSIDERED HIGH RISK AND OR DANGEROUS.

Benzene is a colorless and flammable chemical that is processed from crude oil. Benzene forms into vapors that may cause headaches, nausea, dizziness, drowsiness and confusion. Government authorities have known of its toxic effects for some time and its use is tightly regulated. .

Scientific evidence suggests benzene exposure is related to many forms of leukemia:

Long-term exposure to benzene vapors may cause leukemia or cancer of the lymph nodes.

Millions of workers are exposed to benzene, and the use of benzene has been banned for years, but some related benzene chemicals are still in use and expose workers. Benzene vapors could be breathed or absorbed through the skin. Typically, leukemia may be caused by years of exposure or very heavy exposure.

Dangerous occupations

w pharmaceuticals plants
w manufacturers of benzene or benzene products
w chemical labs (such as universities or commercial laboratories)
w oil refineries
w chemical and petrochemical plants
w pesticide manufacturing
w printing
w gasoline distribution
w working on oil tankers
w pulp and paper manufacturing
w wood stain and varnish manufacturing
w rubber production
w manufacture of adhesive


Sources of Benzene Exposure, Fumes from:

w oil/coal burning
w automobile exhaust
w industrial solvents
w gasoline stations
w painting

BRING ON ALL THE LAWYERS YOU CAN THROW AT ME, WHAT I SAID IS TRUE AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.

JIM I THOUGHT YOU WERE SO MUCH A " GREEN CLEAN " KIND OF GUY, DID SOMEONE CHANGE THE FLAVOUR OF THE WEEK OR DID YOU JUST CHANGE THE MUSIC.

DON , YOU MIGHT HAVE TO SEND BACK ALL THE D.F.C, LOOKS LIKE WE'RE BACK TO THE NASTY STUFF AGAIN.

                                           NIGHTRIDER

I bet I'm paying less than you for the same sh*t LOL

cleanex wrote: DFC 105 purchases June/ 2005   15 cases May/2005     10 cases April/2005     10 cases March/2005   10 cases Feb/2005      10 cases Jan/2005       10 cases  That is 65 cases so far in 2005, will not post invoices as it is no bodies business but mine as what I pay for products. Don Eldred

There is a law covering the use of benzene in Ontario

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Regs/English/900839_e.htm - http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Regs/English/900839_e.htm

What will kill you faster?

Drinking a bottle of booze per day or cleaning with Butyl?

I guess that depends if you want to add fun to your life or years to your life...or vice versa.