Michael - You have asked some very good questions. Our Company has been involved in "green" for several years now and i must admit that generally speaking the professional caqrpet cleaning industry has done a good job of sitting on both sides of the fence. Those that recognize the value it brings have embraced it - those that  are used to cleaning with nuclear power haven't and more than likely won't.

You say that many in your county are green conscious. They are not alone. It is estimated that 15 - 20% of the population is now chemically sensitive, asthma is exploding as are other respiratory ailments. I can tell you from my work with Governments at both the provincial and federal levels tells me that the changes that are coming are here to stay in public buildings. People who operate in the public domain recognize the issues that we face. The scientific evidence is in fact overwhelming.

Having said this - at the residential level most of this goes out the window. A cleaner has just one shot to impress the customer and so is inclined to use their favorite "firepower" because it workks really well.

Green solutions generally speaking clean the average soil but do not respond as well to trashed out carpets such as found in restaurants or other areas. The new DFC products work very well in the bonnet and encapsulation arena's. If there is a main theme here it simply - lets minimize our exposure (and the customers) to the nasty stuff only when necessary. The nasty stuff will never go away - there will always be a need.

However, you are bang on if you market and promote the use of safer chemistry to your customers. i assure you your customers are ready for it. 

I might also suggest that the EPA is not the greatest place to get info. They do not write standards. Just as the IICRC is recognized for writing standards in the cleaning and restoration industry the most recognized green standards are: Environmental Choice (Canada), green Seal (USA) European Flower (Europe) and the CRI (USA). The latter does not write standards but they do run scientific tests on products to insure they meet the criteria they have set up.

Most standards are environmental standards - there is one called CCD146i that is a health standard. This one certainly makes most sense to me as most of the cleaning products certified are all about saving the fish at the expense of the people.

If you want more unbiased factual info i have lots of it. let me know

Go for it!  We are using DFC105 every day of the week, we like the results and are real happy with the fact that we now are cleaning for health reasons and not just appearance.

 Our commercial clients like the fact that no more harsh chemicals are being used to maintain their carpets

Green cleaning is just picking up speed and those of us who choose to get on board now will have a head start on the majority who will only change when they are forced to.

GO FOR IT!

WOW Clean Green Cleaners.... I guess I can clean green after all my TM is just outside the customers door making tons of pollution...lol

Steamer

Kleen Kuip could sell you a Crystal Dry cleaning System and it could solve all those Pollution Problems.

PS: There is only one problem, you would have to raise your pricing to 44 cents a square foot.

I have said it Many, Many, Many times before.

Never use a product or instrument in front of your customer's that they can buy locally them selfs.  Next time they won't need you.

Steamer

Kleen Kuip could sell you a Crystal Dry cleaning System and it could solve all those Pollution Problems.

PS: There is only one problem, you would have to raise your pricing to 4.4 cents a square foot.

Update on DFC

Looks like we have another confusing product to sell........50% of DFC users just love it and are extremely happy........20% say it does not work.......30% could care less.

Don't give up on it,  as Don says, Clean for the Health of it.

JaredW

Your post above only makes me squirm a little. Simple Green is the best example of MSDS manipulation i have ever seen.

First of all, their product contains about 6% Ethylene Glycol Monobutyl Ether (otherwise known as Butyl cellusolve). They go on to say that it does not carcinogenic. The fact of the matter is that this material has never been tested for cancer! This material is about to be outlawed in Canada

Biodegradeable is another favorite of mine. Almost every company I am aware of that claims biodegradeability is referring to individual ingredients - NOT WHOLE FOMULA TESTING. If you really want to find out send them an email and ask for whole formula testing results. i doubt whether they can provide them. Biodegradeability also refers to when the product is exposed to air. The moment your cleaning solution goes down the drain it is no longer in aerobic conditions but anearobic. All data that does not refer to anaerobic is now meaningless.

The sad reality is that most MSDS's contain information that very few people know how to read and if they did they wouldn't understand it.

i have no doubt that Simple Green cleans very well. Just don't call it green. here is some health information on butyl

I don't mean to scare you - it is just that you have to know how to look beneath the surface

We have been selling green cleaners for years now, it all passed Canada's NSF and yet it is a powerful product. WE use it for trashed carpet, grout and tile, wood, brick and concrete.

Green doens't need to mean WEAK...

Abstraction Vlm and Tlc are green yet very powerful.

PadMan

I have never heard of NSF. Can you tell me what this is exactly

Jim

I think it means Non Sufficient Funds.

VLM and TLC are awesome cleaners. As are the 1st Enviro products that are very similar in Canada.

DFC and Ecogent are good cleaners.

If you have a functional health and safety policy in your business you would be using green cleaners whenever you can.

Lee

If you are not spraying green then maybe you should re-think your options.

The TLV of butyl cellusolve is 20PPM Skin.

That is nasty and in no way green.

They are talking about banning butyls in Canada, but it is more likely to be taxed so as to not be affordable. Taxes, the Canadian way.

Michael wrote: MR. STEAMER wrote: WOW Clean Green Cleaners.... I guess I can clean green after all my TM is just outside the customers door making tons of pollution...lol We're not trying to save the world. We're just trying to meet customer concerns and find a marketing niche. If we can manage to be sensitive to environmental concerns, then great. It's my experience that customers are chiefly concerned about how safe our products are to them personally, in their home. I'm constantly being asked if my products are safe for animals, safe for people with allergies or sensitivities to detergents and fragrances, etc. No one has ever asked if my products kill whales or dim the sun. In short, who cares about the apparent contradiction in running a truckmount? I'll use HWE if it's warranted, or I'll bonnet. Most of the Green products are formulated to be used either way. Lots of carpet cleaners claim they use non-toxic, biodegradeable products. It hardly sets them apart anymore, but the Green Seal adds credibility to such claims.

customers don't have labs on site where they can do testing...

don't get sucked into this foolishness

This is a good topic.... Do the Customers care if it's green???? some say yes some say no.  I know every market is different, I'm sure I get more customers giving away free movie passes or pizza vouchers than I will cleaning with certified GREEN products.

Jim Darling may be truthful, but there are a lot of other chemical producers that don't list everything on the label.

Don't believe everything you read on the label.

It's the unknown that is killing us

I occassionally have customers ask about how safe the chem's I'm using are.

It's more of a personal preference in many situations,if the customer has young children,pets,or medical problems of course I like to clean on the green side.

most of all,it's for my own health,I'm breating this stuff in all day 6-7 days a week,getting it on my hands etc.

the trick is for me,that I found a green cleaner (even though there are "greener") that works just as well  (IMO better) than the harsher kidney failing,lung trashing chem's

We actually use the First Enviro as a TLC with good results. The men will use that one fiirst with DFC in the machine if necessary.

Funny thing about the concerned citizens who want green cleaners, they'll always let you use the firepower on the bad areas.

I wont use anything in a customers home that I wont use in my own home.

Green clean all the way.

N1

well if the customer wants green they will live with the natural formulating dirt!

To really clean GREEN all you should use is water....

because all the SO CALLED green products contain harmful chemicals..they just aren't listed on the label

would I drink GREEN??

Not a chance in hell

John here in Canada the damn money is multi-color...lol

sometimes green red brown or blue backs.....LOL

What's this worth?? $1

79 cents

N1

0.814144 USD

according to my currency convertor

and where are the Expo"s playing base ball now!

N1

LilNiteRidrhood wrote: Actually with the Expo 67 thing on it it may be worth a bit more.

Lee when you look at that dollar you see the Expo.........you are definitely from Montreal with that tunnel vision.

I see our Centennial Year......our country was one hundred years old in that year and I see our now existing flag free from the Union Jack and the Common Wealth.

I have a new customer who is entering our business very enthusiastically with a truckmount and a Jetless Rotary Drimaster Extractor. He is using our DFC (Detergent Free Cleaning) and starting out in his town to promote green and dryer cleaning as his conscience dictates him to do so.

His entire marketing theme will be green. He says every cleaner in his town has old school thinking. We wish him well with his fresh green approach.

Now it is interesting that before he got his government backed finances together to do this they put him through a few hoops. They asked him where he was planning on dumping his dirty water. He indicated because he was using chemical free products that do not harm the environment and have government seals of approval it should not be an issue.

They said "But what about the chemicals you will be extracting from the so called old school thinkers who cleaned it the last time?"

Goes to show you the big eye in the sky is watching.

Kleen Kuip sees this happening and when the crunch comes and our competitors are scrambling for green formulas we will already have them in place.

Tomorrows products today.

Ted

You bring up an interesting point. Because we are registered with Environment Canada and Environmental Choice we get access to all sorts of information. We were asked to attend a conference about 5 months ago on VOC's.

To make a long story short we were the smallest company in attendance. The rest were all multinationals doing billions of dollars. In any event,  the federal Gov was pointing out to everyone how they are going to start putting limits on VOC's that are allowed. As an example we are now forced to report our VOC output here. This includes a calculation on when the bung is removed from a drum to putting X number of pounds into a product and then resealing the drum. VOC's come from so many places including cleaners

The time has come where companies will now be looking at VOC listings on MSD sheets and will be choosing cleaners that meet certain standards as it relates to VOC's aquatic toxicity etc. The change will start with the larger companies and then trickle doen the line.

From my perspective it is a very interesting thing to watch happen. At least i can take comfort in knowing that we can meet these changes happening beyond our control.

Jim

I love these posts all about so called " Green Cleaners ", not to say that I don't approve of the efforts made to promote them ( For a price of course ). No company will promote and generate publicity on a new product, method, or service for the pure fun and enjoyment for it's potential d**k & Jane consumer hanging on to every word as if it was The Bible to life itself.

What I find ironic and a little confusing here is that the very carpet you are trying to clean using " Green Chemicals " contain a host of carcinogens themselves, one of those being " Butadiene ", not to mention the host of potential problems that the inexperienced carpet cleaner can create on his own due to over wetting.

Not wanting to make this post too long and boring, I would just like to know how many of you " Green Carpet Cleaners " out there smoke, drink, take drugs, jog in the middle of rush hour, drink coffee, alchol,...........you get the point.............

My point is toxins are accumulated in the body after 25, 30, and up to 40 years of CRONIC EXPOSURE on a daily basis, unless you're drinking that crap and sniffing it all day as a hobby..............DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT

Now go clean a carpet with some Butyl, and have a nice healthy day.

                                    Nightrider

I've said it in the past and I will say it again..................ONLY THE DOSE MAKES THE POISON

Michael, as far as choking on wood while in a dust form is very common ( IT'S CALLED SAWDUST ) cut some wood and throw some of that sawdust in your mouth and take a deep breath...............you'll quickly change your upper post..........perhaps I read your post all wrong..........but that's what I got out of it.

As far as Butadiene not being dangerous in carpets and or hard plastics because it is not in its gas form is a very uneducated and closed minded statement. There are many factors that alter materials containing " Butadiene " thus releasing the gases into the air, such as heated plastic, deteriorating foam, elevated humitity, poor indoor air quality due to lack of ventilation, etc etc etc..........are all these factors enough to release large amounts of Butadiene to cause harm..............of course not ( only the dose makes the poison ) Jim Darling hates that expression ( that's why I use it often )

My point as being " IRONIC " was made in a comedic sence of the situation.

                                      Nightrider

Jack

Welcome back - I have missed your posts. i totoally agree with (and always have) your position that the dose makes the poison. i have used the phrase many times in presentations. because i had never heard of BUTADIENE i did a little search and this is what i came up with..

1,3-Butadiene ranks 36^th in the most produced chemicals in the United States. Three billion pounds per year are produced in the United States and 12 billion globally. 1,3-Butadiene is produced through the processing of petroleum and is mainly used in the production of synthetic rubber, but is also found in smaller amounts in plastics and fuel. Exposure to 1,3-Butadiene mainly occurs in the workplace, including the following industries: synthetic elastomer (rubber and latex) production, petroleum refining, secondary lead smelting, water treatment, agricultural fungicides, production of raw material for nylon, and the use of fossil fuels. Exposure can also occur from automobile exhaust; polluted air and water near chemical, plastic or rubber facilities; cigarette smoke; and ingestion of foods that are contaminated from plastic or rubber containers.

From Day 1, our position has always been the same in regards to the dose makes the poison. When homeowners get their carpet cleaned their exposure to the solutions being used is minimal. The exposure that the cleaner gets from using the same solutions all day long is more than minimal. They get the same exposure all day long on every job. 5 days per week, 52 weeks per year. And so this small dose adds up and becomes part of our Body Burden.

For most cleaners, there is usually 1 solution they use that makes them cough, hurts their nose or bothers them in some way. They have become sensitized to this solution and continued exposure to it is not a good thing. 

The real benefit for changing to healthier solutions (apart from the benefit to the cleaner) is the marketing opportunity it affords. Consumers understand these issues very well and it is our experience they will respond in a positive fashion.

I understand that cleaners think they need to use firepower and for most part they will continue to do so. That is their perogative. What is undeniably changing, however, is the clients (right now mostly in the commerical field) whowill not allow the traditional products into their buildings due to the potential long term affects they have. This whole argument may be better suited for the janitorial type trade whose exposure to cleaners is higher.

 Jack - good to see you back - don't be away so long next time

Jim

Jim,

Your post has pissed off and awoken the giant. Then on the other hand I like to see you two guys have the battle of the green. It's healthy to hear both sides. I just wonder which side is the healthiest.

nightrider,

It's nice to hear from you, since both you and SuperGlideKen dropped out of circulation the site is just not the same. No arguments, no bickering, no education and no comic relief. Hope to see you contribute again. I was afraid to ask you where you are, or where you have been. I assumed you were out cleaning green. To you that means clean it and get the green money in your hand.

Wish you all the best.

Thanks Jim& Ted,  actually just passing through to see how peoples mind-sets have changed and see what's up in the world of carpet cleaning challenges. As I recall it ( and the posts are still there for verification, you didn't agree with me that the dose makes the poison,............ but I digress.

Jim I can appreciate the efforts you devote to making new , improved, and better products, and I agree with you that 99 % of all chemicals out there are bad..............but man made this planet so contaminated, that we are contaminating it more, including ourselves and generations to come just to try to clean it up.

You and every other company out there can come up with all kinds of magical products..........let's go on the assumption that 50 % of the population purchase them ( GREAT for you, $$$$$ ) but never forget the other 50 % that are still contaminating what the other 50 % just cleaned up.

It's a circle that has no beginning, therefore has no end, " Green " is a marketing ploy that doesn't seem to be working, even with it's best intentions, recycling paper products are NOT SAFE and contaminating and poissoning our fresh water streams, the ground, water-tables, and ourselves, IT'S A NO WIN SITUATION JIM, AND YOU KNOW IT......................BUT ISN'T MARKETING FUN & EXCITING, MARKETING IS A TOOL TO MEASURE JUST HOW STUPID JOE PUBLIC REALLY IS.

HAPPY HUNTING JIM, Ted I'll be calling you, Jim you still owe me a cup of coffee, Ted I still owe you a machine and a purchase. I've been busy with other interests. Take care       Jack

                                               Nightrider

Michael, I'm disappointed in you, I thought for a split second there I  would have a sparring partner with intellegence to exchange ideas with. I guess you're just the type of guy that jumps on and off the bandwaggon of whoever's winning. It's 1:10 pm Michael, lunch is over, crank up your portable and go back to cleaning your customers carpet.

                                  Nightrider

Michael, if you can't insult me, and contradict what I say ( with a degree if intellegence of course ) then your argument becomes dull, mundane, flat, and just plain boring to read and respond to. I like excitment, controversy, wit, sarcasm, intellegence & comedy all neatly wrapped up with tin foil, so that when lightning strikes, sparks fly and this board lights up with enthusiasm from other members who get shocked with delight as they read the posts.

This kleenKuip board is not all about carpet cleaning, and equipment for sale..............it's a place to come to after a days work and unwind your tension , frustations , and happy moments of the day.

There are other boards out there, but they are stale and smell of meldew that lurks from the minds of their members............that's why, they too come to KleenKuip  from time to time, just to brush off the cob-webs that keep their minds in the cellar of society, and to educate themself from the likes of Jim Darling, Ted Harding, General Lee Senter, Ed Valentine, and the off the wall one liners of Doug, Steamer, Cmaster, Steaminpile, JohnL, Adwa and many others.................................

                                            Nightrider

JACK

As was said in the movie

I AM GLAD YOU HAVE FOUND YOUR HAPPY PLACE

LETS BE HAPPY IN THE NEW YEAR WHEN I COME TO MONTREAL.

Forget the coffee I owe you. lets do steamed all dressed, poutine or maybe the BarB

Great Jim, My treat.......................I'll bring you to a great place to eat, overlooking downtown Montreal while the restaurant floor turns to 360........Jack

                                     Nightrider

It's all the poeple that sit along the window seats that have to tug on the window frames to make it spin, sometimes you get up to get some food and you turn around only to find your tables gone........

                             Nightrider

If your table is gone when you get back does that mean you get to kick the people out of "your seat"

Could be an evening of musical chairs

You'll have a real kickin good time there Jim.............and just for you I'll have the chef cook you up some of that " Green Meat " he keeps by the door special for you.......................

                                    Nightrider

i can't wait to kick those people out of their (my) chair. As far as the green meat goes, seeing as DFC is all food based ingredients we can make our own special sauce.

MMMMMMMMMMM GOOD

Green meat, pickles, onions, special sauce ona sesame seed bun. bring it on

You're starting to scare me Jim, is there no end to your fantasy fetish of working, playing, and eating " Green "

You do realize Jim that there's a " Red-Light District here in Montreal where I'm sure there is tons of Green Meat you can eat

                                 Nightrider

Jack

You are one scary individual. Dinner is on for sure. We will have lots of fun. i will let you know exactly when i will be there. Time to go home

You watch too many cartoons Dougie Boy.................by the way where is Steamer.........I guess it's that time of the month to scramble and get contracts 'cause the rent is due............

                                         Nightrider

Tried to post but the board jusk keeps rejecting my posts.  Maybe it is trying to tell me something?

SpongeBob wrote: i often get some type of error and i have to repost what i just posted i thought it was my computer glad to see you have the same problem

We will be upgrading the forum software soon. I know how frustrating it can be to type and have to re-type because of an error.

Here's a tip until we get this forum upgraded.

When you are finished typing highlight all of your text, click Edit at the top left of your browser then select Copy.

If you get the error you can always Paste whatever you typed back in.

Or for you more computer savvy type of people highlight all of your text, press and hold the Ctrl key on your keyboard then press C for copy. You can paste back in using the Ctrl key plus the V key.

Make sense? Try it. 

nightrider,

I have a Ninja especially painted up for you to buy.

No matter what you have to say about Green Cleaning this would force your customers to believe that you are a definite Enviro Cleaner...

...or a drunkin' Irish Man.

I'd rather be known as a drunkin Irish-Man..................at least the customer would be facing the truth and erase all doubts as to where I stand.....

                                 Nightrider

Send that machine and pail over to Jim Darling, it would be love at first sight

I always wore glasses Doug...............Better to see you with..........................(lil red riding hood )

                                 Nightrider