Look parsons,

I could easily provide facts for atleast 1/2 of those you posted that would show the contrary.  It would be a waste of time though.  We all feel differently about the war.

One thing is certian, none of us will ever know for sure, what the facts were.  No member of the administration is going to give the real facts.  Why would they.  Some say we went to war over 9/11, and others say we went to war over oil.  Either one is justifiable.  Throughout history the largest single reason for going to war was for economic reasons.  When a societies economy is held hostage by any issue its people suffer.  That suffering may be on a much lower scale here in the US since our standard of living is so much greater here than most of the world.  But a standard was under attack.  The largest issue with 9/11 was the millions of lives that were changed for the worse because of 9/11.  Jobs lost in the millions, paychecks lowered in the billions, less money spent on carpet cleaning, affecting even the lowest most detached person.  The Marines which I proudly served with from 92-96 are out there making sure millions of lives arent changed for the worse. 

How did they accomplish that, well they saw a problem dictator that was hurting his people, who had lots of cheap oil, and was most importantly right smack dab in the middle of the regoin were these terrorists not only were hiding but multiplying their numbers.  So we set a trap, we attacked this country which was easy for these terrorists to get into, knowing that they would take the bait.  120,000 americans right next to them, they would now come out of hiding, saving us decades of trying to flush them out.  The reason they would come out of hiding is because of all these easy tagets so close to them.  Does it suck for the sodiers, yes, but lets think about this.  In one day the terrorists managed to kill 3000 people and destroy an economy because they got over here.  In 2 years they have cost us 1700 soldiers and no economic damage.   Plus we have killed or captured 100,000 plus possible terrorists, and unfortunatly innocents as well.  Still at least our soldiers have a fighting chance the civilians didnt and wouldnt if they got here again, instead of being distracted by the bait we have put out.

There is political damage for the man who was brave enough to make the hard decision, but atleast he was a man and could make the decision.

Here is a good forem for political stuff:

http://tinyurl.com/9my7h

Personal attacks Rick? Very mature. Apart from showing you can't disprove my facts, it shows a lack of enough intelligence to debate the issue. Use some research and your brain.

Again, you assume I'm a big Saddam fan. WRONG- But read up on your history as to who loaded Saddam up with chemical weapons and such. See Donald Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand. As far as darrel's stuff goes, I rebutted that on ther other post. I support truth and facts, not propaganda and proven LIES.

Disprove my facts darrel. You can't. FACT is , Bush tried to dupe the world into going to war with him , based on LIES, unless there is a new definition of the word.Might have been the only thing done right here for once, but most of the world saw through Bush's house of cards.

If you would like, I can dig up a whole pile more of Bush's "truth economy", right from the time he was leading Texans down the merry path of bullsh*t.

Then how come

A study by the Lancet( a British medical journal) reveals that the common Iraqi is 58   times more likely to die from violence, than before the invasion( see below)

"The $151.1 billion expenditure for the war through this year could have paid for: close to 23 million housing vouchers; health care for over 27 million uninsured Americans; salaries for nearly 3 million elementary school teachers; 678,200 new fire engines; over 20 million Head Start slots for children; or health care coverage for 82 million children. A leaked memo from the White House to domestic agencies outlines major cuts following the election, including funding for education, Head Start, home ownership, job training, medical research and homeland security."

AND THOSE FIGURES ARE OLD.

How many families in the US have lost a member due to Bush's ambition?

How many innocent Iraqis have died?

Has the price of fuel gone down?

How much does  Bush's war cost the American people?

Is the propaganda that blinding?

There is no rebuff here.  I do understand what you are saying though and why.  I was just pointing out why it is happening.  Are Iraqis more likely to die from violence, hum well  DuH!  There is a war going on.

Could 151 billion, even though that fact is wrong becauseit is higher, you might want to check your facts once again, been used in other ways?  Well I could think of about that , at 26000 a pop that could have bought 5807692 truck mounts of high quality for all of us so that we could clean even better.  Maybe know you see how irrelevant the number is because it is being spent already. 

There are some simple truths here,

war costs money

war costs lives

But do I feel it is justified, yes.  Do I feel it sucks, yes.  Do I want it to be over, yes.  I dont want to ever lose one of my best friends again.  But it is still in the long run much better for this country and the world as a hole.

First off thanks for using your head for a reply and not shooting the messenger. But think about the indignation and anger felt while my country was verbally pasted time in time out by Bushco because for ONCE my PM made a choice not to blindly follow based on the information available, and not Bush's, um, aw hell- LIES. Definition of lie:

Main Entry: ⁴lie
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English lige, lie, from Old English lyge; akin to Old High German lugI, Old English lEogan to lie
1 a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker
2 : something that misleads or deceives
3 : a charge of lying

That sums up the reasons for Bush's rush to war and all the mistruths and misrepresentations that went with it.Bush lied. Pure, plain and simple.

"There is a war going on."- Didn't Bush declare it was all over when he "landed" that plane on the deck?

"But it is still in the long run much better for this country and the world as a hole."

Is it? The news I get is there is increasing anger and resentment towards the U.S. because of this. How much did you pay for gas 3 years ago? How much today?Doesn't that have a profound effect on the economy?

My statement in regards to the money , indeed, was old. The funny part was Bush asking for money to help rebuild what he tore down.Yet, while asking(and receiving) hundreds of millions from Canada, Bush said Canadians weren't allowed to help with rebuilding. Must be a liars club only thing.

My final point is that now that Bush has broken ranks with the UN, has broken the Geneva Convention and brought disrespect for the office he holds, whats to stop him from doing or invading anything he pleases , as long as he can dress it up and sell it.By saying it is "justified" to go to war over another countrie's oil , is SCARY. How long before we see our borders invaded over our water supplys?

"War costs lives"- The sad part is the lives were exchanged for propaganda and fibs. If that doesn't create outrage in you, than I'm confused.

To assert that Bush didn't lie is a lie in itself.

Listen Wilie,

there are several things that havent gone the way anyone wanted in this war.  That is what happens in war.  You are forced to adapt to ever changing circumstances.  But make no mistake about it.  This war is a war on terror, and to beat the terrorists you have to out terror them.  The difference is that when you are considered the country on the high moral ground all of a sudden you have to hide the terrible aspects of a war, something that is increasingly hard to do in today's media rich world.  You have to become more brutal than your most brutal enemy in order to win.  Only then will the civilians at home and thier economy be safe...

To kill the monster you must become a monster.  Get it. 

Does the enemy follow the geneva conventions.  I think not.  They would rather politize every beheading they can.  As far as I know, sawing off ones head with a serrated knife on video, and showing that is against the geneva convention.  So if we scare some poor little suspected Terrorist with a growling dog, or make them god forbid stand naked in front of others, or take a dump on a Kuran, I feel we are still on the high ground.  Maybe we are flirting with the edge of the cliff, one I feel we should just jump off anyway, but we should do even more.  The fact is though, that most people dont have the stomach to defend themselves in the way that it has to be done.

Good points rick,

I forgot about the babylon cannon.

Also, I just thought I would tear this one apart also.

When the kurds were gased 20% was by chemical tipped artillery and the other 80% was done by manned aerial planes and helecopters.  Maybe we coulnt find the proof of these after the invasion because we blew them all up <boom>

then this

They found many stock piles of munitions that could deliver these chemicals, they just didnt find the chemicals. So obviously you need to not change the context of the statment before you label it not true.  Use your brian man, stop the spinning

Not True

Zero Munitions Found
Not a single chemical weapon’s munition has been found anywhere in Iraq

holy cow...

Sadam was killing people for 25 years.isnt that long enough?its not about bush, its about the people making iraq free.The troops are whats its all about.

how do you think some troop just home from iraq feels hearing all this crap.if you think making iraq free of sadam is not a good idea, go talk to the 10000's of people(FROM IRAQ) he killed.

oh you cant.there dead.

IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING IMPORTANT, TELL ME HOW TO GET MORE CLIENTSSSSSSSSSS...........

PHOENIX, ITS HOT RIGHT?BEEN TO THE POOL TEN TIMES THIS WEEKEND.

113 degrees today man, how you holding up?  Im sceduling as many jobs as I can early morning or in the evening.  Too damn hot to be out there in the afternoon.

Any way got to go to a job now in laveen, you guys tell willie how it is.

http://world.std.com/~jlr/doom/bull.htm - http://world.std.com/~jlr/doom/bull.htm  Hardly a nuke.

Rick - Try not doing a character assasination every time you post. I doesn't reflect well and denegrates your arguement to a schoolyard name calling game.It belittles you much more than me. If you want personal insults , I'll oblige, but you won't like it.

Where , on the great green earth did Saddam get those chemical weapons from that killed the Kurds????

Spin that one.

Sadam was killing people for 25 years.isnt that long enough?

See above about chemical weapons. How many of those years was he receiving arms and sponsorship from the USA?

"When the kurds were gased 20% was by chemical tipped artillery and the other 80% was done by manned aerial planes and helecopters.  Maybe we coulnt find the proof of these after the invasion because we blew them all up <boom>"

And blowing them would leave NO traces?? With the most advanced systems in the world the military CAN'T find a trace? Hmmmm.That's as suspect as the intelligence that lead to the war.

I'll post another pack of Bush's WHOPPERS a little later for your dining and dancing pleasure.

BTW- I have nothing but respect for the people serving in Iraq. Ijust don't respect the lies that put them there.

sadman is gone....  I think thats great....

They are on their way

Rick/Magic wrote: willie, I have come to the conclusion that you are nothing more than a bed wetting, tree hugging, michael moore loving, air america listening, Bush bashing, tofu eating, john cary worshiping, America hating, dan rather believing, hybrid car driving, france loving, sadam butt kissing, terror supporting, pinko leaning, new age embracing, uneducated, uninformed, unwashed, unrefined, unimaginative, unmotivated, undiscriptive, unreasonable, anti-freedom, anti-progress, anti-self determination, anti-social, anti-pasta, anti-bellum, anti-dote, anti-getyourguns, anti-mame, anti-uncle...etc...liberal...but I won't do any name calling...I just don't see your logic...Iraq is free of sadam's horrible rule, and all you can say is Bush lied ...Afghanistan is free...and all you can say is Bush lied...terrorism is now on the run...and all you can say is Bush lied...I get it that you don't like Bush...and I know he couldn't please you if he found a cure for all the world's woes...so you can post all of your little graphs and stats you want...maby it will help you deal with the fact that the war on terrorism is being won...slowly, but surely...and you will just have to get over the fact that your hero...sadam... is out of power...

Deep intellect Rick-  Are you so mentally challenged you can't think deeply enough to refute so you turn to the most gutless, childish and pathetic insults as a form of debate? How shallow and lacking any form of character. It's a lot easier to sling sh*t than to do some research and refute, but it certainly reflects on the indivivuals courage (or lack of) and their convictions. Another sheep that lacks the ability to form coherent thought patterns.Ho hum. Go peddle your papers.

Hello, Hey JCOOPER.. This unit will keep the jobs coming as long as your a good closer... It will get you more leads than any other method...

How do i know??? I bought a telecomputer one year after i started because the other marketing methods were just trickling in jobs... Mine cost $1140 back in 87 and it still works...

As I was out cleaning or passing out flyers.. this unit was making 1000 calls a day per line.... somedays i'd get one lead.. other days 15....

Good luck man......

http://www.lawicka.com/ - http://www.lawicka.com/

Everything that you need to know about the telecomputer is on their site... With one line calling out i was getting 1-15 leads a day... average about 5... Some days i got 0 ! !  but that was rare... and some days 15 and that was rare... The more lines = more leads = more jobs = more money = more happy cc'ers.....

How many convert into jobs you asked???????  Well, that all depends on YOU...How good are you on closing the sale... They are ONLY LEADS..It's up to you to convert them into jobs....

You have to buy the no call list from the state... and be licenced for telemarketing... It's the new law now... hope this helps ya.....

THINK JOHN L WORKS FOR THAT COMPANY?

WILLIE, your nuts.

doug, flyers suck and newspaper sucks.whats will suck next for me?

how much is direct mail?ever tried it?

p.s. doug you still suck.

\QUOTE=Rick/Magic]willie...are you too stupid to know when your chain is being pulled?...I see now that you lack a sense of humor...you really need to lighten up...I suggest we call an end to this "debate" before you blow a fuse and end up on some roof top with a gun shooting at some unsuspecting paper boy thinking it's me all the while shouting "Bush lied!!"...[/QUOTE]

I'd hire a hitman......

Coop, I had a whack of good info for ya to help your start up, but since I'm nuts, it t's probably crazy too....

willie, come on...

its all in good fun!you have your own thoughts on iraq, i have mine.nothing wrong w/that.

if there was no one to fight with life would be boring.i could care less about iraq and its sand, but what about our troops,they deserve my support for doing a job nobody wants to do.willie i have listened to advice from people much crazyer than you.so bring it on.

my problem is:new clients...

direct mail sounds great.dont have the money...newspaper gets me some.flyers have got me none.

john l

so you just set this thing up and it cold calls people all day?what does it say?its about a 1000$$$.then buy a list from the state?how much a month?

is it your message on the machine?

dont just supercharge me.super size me!thanks john

OK.. you record a outgoing message...something like this "Hello, I'm calling from the carpet cleaners with a special money saving offer... If you're interested please consent by staying on the line... If not hang up and we will disconnect... For the next 2 weeks we will clean (then put your special here).... All work comes with a guarantee of customer satisfaction and dries fast.... If you want to take advantage of this one time special offer please state your full name and phone # and a representative will call you as soon as possible....Thank you.......

Not sure of the price you have to pay for the license and no call list... check with your local govt and they will let you know what's up....

That 2 line unit runs around $2500.00 US....

BUT, you should make that back within a week or 2.........

JCOOPER.. the dang thing kept me going for years and most of my repeats are from it........

Had 2-3ft of snow one year and i was out almost everyday cleaning.... and that is unusual in the winter for us.... I didn't believe it.... but true....

When the snow melted i was actually turning jobs down.....

Before i started on my own... I managed a co. in Milwaukee WI that did $100,000 average gross a month.... 90% of the jobs came from telemarketing and repeat and referrals from the original custy....

Hope this helps your skepticism ! ! ! ! !