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Fabric softener as Defoamer

Printed From: Carpet & Floor Cleaning Industry Discussion
Category: Carpet Cleaners Discussion
Forum Name: Carpet Cleaners Hangout
Forum Description: General discussion on anything related to carpet cleaning
URL: http://www.kleenkuip.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6736
Printed Date: 19/July/2019 at 8:49pm
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Topic: Fabric softener as Defoamer
Posted By: Grutzy
Subject: Fabric softener as Defoamer
Date Posted: 05/September/2010 at 11:14am
I tried a few different brands and found out that some work and some do not. So far "Gain" seems to work the best. Do any of you use fabric softeners on your portables and if so, do you have a preference?
The other nice thing about using softeners is that they serve as a defoamer as well as a deodorizer, saving you money.



Replies:
Posted By: duckcountry
Date Posted: 05/September/2010 at 9:01pm
I use chemicals engineered by carpet cleaning chemical manufacturers for the specific purpose of defoaming when I use a portable.  I don't use laundry detergent to clean carpet or fabric softener to defoam a tank.

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Are you in a high paying business or are you just a self employed low paid grunt who thinks this business provides dignity?


Posted By: nightrider
Date Posted: 06/September/2010 at 5:42am
Grutzy.....Using Fabric Softener as a defoamer is scientifically sound if it is cost effective for your application. Adding a tea-spoon of table salt in your return tank is just as good. better still would be to use Liquid Tide ( He for front load washers ) as your cleaning agent ( some have Fabreeze in the receipe ) Tide does not foam up thus reducing your need for any defoamers.
 
Don't let big chemical companies tell you that carpet cleaning chemicals is any different than Tide. The active ingrediants are the same at a fraction of the cost.
 
Remember H1N1, when big Pharma scared half the world into taking the shot, all the while the head if the World Health Organization didn't get hers.......... same deal here.
 
Only fools and the uneducated fall into commercial marketing traps, like " Whiter than White " or  " Cleaner than Clean " the  best one is buy our soap, it lasts longer because it floats to the top and is lighter than the rest ( No it's not ) it's because the soap was mixed too long and created air pockets..........it was a bad batch, a mistake, an employee error..... but they went on to market a mistake into millions of dollars.
 
Use your fabric softener as much as you want, if you listen to fools..... you will only become foolish yourself.
 
                                                      Nightrider


Posted By: Grutzy
Date Posted: 06/September/2010 at 7:51am
I agree with you completely, nightrider. There used to be a product called "Marks Off" and it was for ink, nail polish etc. It was sold by a company called Workmaster and in later years I found out that it was nothing more than re-bottled isopropyl alcohol. I am going to try the Tide when I want to use a detergent in my portable. However, sometimes customers have large amounts of soap residue in the carpet before I get there and I need a defoamer for those applications. Thanks for the tip on Tide!
Does table salt knock down the foam enough to control it even as it continues to come into the waste tank?


Posted By: LilNiteRidrhood
Date Posted: 06/September/2010 at 6:33pm
Most fabric softeners are cationic and will interfere with the performance of your cleaning agents that are anionic or non-ionic. These products will also interfere with the stain protection of the carpet.


Posted By: Grutzy
Date Posted: 06/September/2010 at 6:43pm
Most pre-spray chemicals are not anionic and I do not agree that they hinder non-ionic pre-spray chemicals. Most high PH pre-sprays are cationic anyway. Fabric softeners do not affect detergents used in cleaning clothes so I don't see how they would present a problem on carpets.
 
I have used fabric softeners many times and they did not affect cleaning quality negatively. Most carpets that are cleaned don't have any protector left on them anyway and should have it re-applied after cleaning.


Posted By: nightrider
Date Posted: 07/September/2010 at 3:02am
I am so fed up of all the know it alls regarding carpets, carpet cleaning and chemistry. How easy people get sucked into the big chemical companies way of trickery is far beyond belief . The schools are almost empty with no students roaming the classrooms for a tiny bit of education. Learn some Chemistry and physics and you too will be using alternative better and cheaper cleaning agents. REMEMBER.....the best cleaning agent is WATER..... and only WATER.....better still.....HOT  WATER.  But chemical companies cannot market just water so they have to add something to it.....ever look at the ingrediants to your so called superior carpet cleaning chemicals.....93 % to 97 % water
 
                                                      Nightrider


Posted By: Grutzy
Date Posted: 07/September/2010 at 7:15am
Nightrider, while water is the main source of cleaning, it must be empowered with cleaning agents to work well. I agree with you about not being fooled by the industry chemical manufacturers but surely I would not want to use ONLY water to clean carpet.
 
Back to the subject, lets remember that red dye transfer chemical is mostly nothing more than ammonia. This is a perfect example. You can buy ammonia for $2 a bottle or buy the one from your distributor that sells for $35. I keep the two part red dye remover just in case the ammonia fails but more times than not, the result is the same for either one.
 
I'll be trying Tide this week for a general detergent thanks to your advice.


Posted By: nightrider
Date Posted: 07/September/2010 at 7:36pm
Grutzy... If you have a portable with an aggitator brush, go give a free demo at any Chinese restaurant and use only hot tap water, and see what happens . I have also used a Steamon Demon with only hot water, and the results were the same.....A CLEAN CARPET. Chemicals or soaps only suspend soil and grime for a short time period, the water is the carrier. I have cleaned hundreds of thousands of sq. feet of carpet over the last almost 40 years using only hot water.
 
                                                          Nightrider


Posted By: Grutzy
Date Posted: 08/September/2010 at 4:17pm
Nightrider, I'm with you on a lot of what you wrote but this is where the bus drops me off. There is no way in hell that you will get restaurant carpet clean with only hot water from a tap and no chemical. I have a Hydramaster Titan in my fleet and know how beneficial hot water can be in conjunction with good cleaning chemicals. Water is surely the means of travel but first the dirt, oil etc must be removed from the carpet fibers and suspended so water can haul it away. Chemicals serve this purpose and water alone won't do it.


Posted By: DietCoke
Date Posted: 08/September/2010 at 4:25pm
I have to agree with Grutzy on this one. Clap

Water alone can not possibly remove all of the uglies from a carpet (especially oil based matter). Dead

Knowing that nightrider uses only hot water to clean carpets I wouldn't hire him as my professional carpet cleaner. As a customer I would feel like I was getting ripped off. Ouch



Posted By: nightrider
Date Posted: 09/September/2010 at 4:55am
Big smile.....Maybe I have magic water, DietCoke if you would feel ripped off by me cleaning your carpet using only water.....how do you feel every time you put gas in your car, or do your income tax, how about when you have to buy pills or medicine, do you ever feel like you're getting ripped off then.
 
Look at every chemical you buy and the percentage of water is high 80's of % to 90's%. Look at the Diet Coke you drink 93% water.
 
FEEL RIPPED OFF YET,           YOU SHOULD BE Clown
 
                                                        Nightrider
 
                                                    


Posted By: Carpetologist
Date Posted: 09/September/2010 at 4:38pm
When nightrider starts defaming marketing and sales it's time to bring back the 'Hide' commercial. Since ineffective cleaning products such as water-only will only 'Hide' the soil we should call it what it really is. In fact, so many professional carpet cleaners do just that on a regular basis. If the customer only understood they would feel ripped off.

Marketing and sales is what keeps the world churning and prospering. The funny thing is nightrider is the KING of marketing and sales and has all the answers when he is selling but he is too cheap and not willing to share his fortune when actually using products.

Maybe we need General Lee to step in and teach us about surface tension to prove the worthiness of a good detergent.

Nice to see nightrider sharpening his axe and coming back with his love and hate answers to our questions.



-------------
Kleen Kuip Supply Mart Inc.

http://www.kleenkuip.com - New & Used Professional Carpet Cleaning Machines, Restoration Equipment, Training, Service and Supplies


Posted By: Michael
Date Posted: 09/September/2010 at 6:04pm
Does the ionic charge even matter if it just goes only in the waste tank?


Posted By: DietCoke
Date Posted: 09/September/2010 at 6:45pm
Of course I feel ripped off nightrider. If money wasn't so important then people wouldn't have to stab you in the back to get it. People cheat, lie and steal just so they can put food on their table. Money makes the world go around...and so do the people that cheat, lie and steal.

Hey nightrider, how do your clothes smell after you wash them using only hot water? Does it remove the skid marks from your Fruit of the Looms? Point and LaughButt Shake



Posted By: Grutzy
Date Posted: 09/September/2010 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by Michael Michael wrote:

Does the ionic charge even matter if it just goes only in the waste tank?
Not at all.


Posted By: Michael
Date Posted: 09/September/2010 at 9:36pm
Seemed like a strange point to bring up.


Posted By: nightrider
Date Posted: 10/September/2010 at 5:26am
I must have been causing trouble if Ted got on board of this thread Big smile  Always nice to read his input, and I agree General Lee should put his knowledge on the table regarding serface tension ( so I can poke holes in it ).
 
DietCoke, the day I wash my underwear with 600 psi and almost 300 degrees of hot water plus a cylindrical brush rotating at 150 rpm's , I guarantee you I will not use any detergent. Just to let you know I use Tide He for my clothes.....The same stuff I clean greasy restaurant carpets with.
 
                                                        Nightrider


Posted By: Chay
Date Posted: 11/September/2010 at 10:36pm

Nightrider use some  commen sense, I have seen what tide can do to a carpet, the grease just sticks to it all that much faster. How do I know this? Because maybee I have seen it used!

Actually had a guy who had the nerve to use old dutch on my carpet and kicked his butt to the curb ! When I told him the carpet was still dirty he argued with me and I called another company who re-cleaned my carpet and even without chemicals just to appease my suspicions the water came out dirty!! How can you call yourself a pro?


Posted By: Alexarz
Date Posted: 12/September/2010 at 11:42am
Maybe Tide would work fine if used as a pre-spray and rinsed out, just as it is intended to be used with clothing.


Posted By: duckcountry
Date Posted: 12/September/2010 at 9:26pm
Tide is one of the weakest cleaners in your home.  All laundry detergent requires extreme agitation to clean and are weak.  On the other hand, ever left your dishes to soak in the kitchen sink?  Now that is cleaning power.  But use what you want, no one in my household really cares.

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Are you in a high paying business or are you just a self employed low paid grunt who thinks this business provides dignity?


Posted By: nightrider
Date Posted: 13/September/2010 at 7:13am
So what you are saying DuckCountry, is that we are better off cleaning carpets with Dishsoap instead of laundry soap..... O.K  Got it Wink Ducky.......... Thanks, I didn't know you use dishsoap instead of carpet chemicals Ducky.....you sly dog, you.
 
What have you got for hardwood floors.
 
                                                       Nightrider


Posted By: Soil Lint Green
Date Posted: 13/September/2010 at 12:09pm
sandpaper?

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It's ORY GUN, not OR A GONE. Learn to talk.


Posted By: duckcountry
Date Posted: 13/September/2010 at 1:10pm
And try EasyOff and steel wool for those stubborn grease stains.  For urine, flood the area with Old Spice after shave and use cat litter.  For vomit, invite the neighbors over for a unique dining experience.  For hardwood floors, a painting of a beautiful naked woman on the ceiling.

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Are you in a high paying business or are you just a self employed low paid grunt who thinks this business provides dignity?


Posted By: duckcountry
Date Posted: 13/September/2010 at 1:12pm
Just wondering - is anyone else annoyed by these damn infolink tags infesting the forum pages?

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Are you in a high paying business or are you just a self employed low paid grunt who thinks this business provides dignity?


Posted By: nightrider
Date Posted: 13/September/2010 at 2:05pm
I think those info links are Teds way of balancing his books because of slow sales of carpet cleaning chemicals because of Tide and now Dishweashing soaps.
 
I really like the idea of painting nude woman on my ceiling.......... DuckCountry do you have a problem with shot spots on your ceiling, or do you just re-paint once in a while
                                                         Nightrider


Posted By: les21
Date Posted: 13/September/2010 at 6:12pm
If it works without harming the machine and its saves chems costs, then i dont see what the problem is!


Posted By: John L
Date Posted: 13/September/2010 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by duckcountry duckcountry wrote:

Just wondering - is anyone else annoyed by these damn infolink tags infesting the forum pages?
No not @ all why?


Posted By: DietCoke
Date Posted: 13/September/2010 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by duckcountry duckcountry wrote:

Just wondering - is anyone else annoyed by these damn infolink tags infesting the forum pages?


I find this forum to be rather clean compared to most forums that are rather heavily clogged with advertising.



Posted By: LilNiteRidrhood
Date Posted: 16/September/2010 at 5:52pm

Ted has asked me to comment on this thread but I find it impossible to take the time when I have one so called chemist saying most carpet presprays are cationic (which is thoroughly wrong, they would screw up the acid dye blockers) and another goofball like Nightrider who is part of the gang that gives carpet cleaners such a bad name.



Posted By: nightrider
Date Posted: 17/September/2010 at 9:04pm
Come on General Lee, I'm not a GoofBall, and I'm certainly not a Carpet Cleaner. I'm a Business Man, in thre Business of making MONEY .
 
I am NOT a Professional in any field other than Teaching. Cleaning carpets, walls, floors laundry etc etc. is a respectable labour choice, but not one that requires too much skill other that having 2 hands and at least one good eye to see what you're cleaning.
 
I'm certainly  not responsible of giving carpet cleaning a bad name, although my posts might seem so..........it is the fault of the organizations which you give your hard earned money to that are the blemish to the industry. They are the ones who should lobby the government to have a permit requirement to clean carpets and all maintenance for that fact. Any immigrant that comes off the boat can scrape together 500.00 bucks and jump into carpet cleaning and call themselves Pro's.
 
There are 500 Tamils just waiting to get off the boat so that they can buy a portable, some Tide or Dishsoap  and get into the Carpet Cleaning Business.
 
General Lee, over the past 7 years I got to know alot about you, You are a good father to your kids, a good husband to your wife, a very knowledgable Respectable PROFESSIONAL  in the Carpet Industry.....but a very poor judge of character ( you should know me better than that General )
 
                                                       Nightrider


Posted By: Grutzy
Date Posted: 17/September/2010 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by LilNiteRidrhood LilNiteRidrhood wrote:

Ted has asked me to comment on this thread but I find it impossible to take the time when I have one so called chemist saying most carpet presprays are cationic (which is thoroughly wrong, they would screw up the acid dye blockers) and another goofball like Nightrider who is part of the gang that gives carpet cleaners such a bad name.

LOL. What a "know-it-all" dork.


Posted By: John L
Date Posted: 17/September/2010 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by nightrider nightrider wrote:

Come on General Lee, I'm not a GoofBall, and I'm certainly not a Carpet Cleaner. I'm a Business Man, in thre Business of making MONEY .
 
I am NOT a Professional in any field other than Teaching. Cleaning carpets, walls, floors laundry etc etc. is a respectable labour choice, but not one that requires too much skill other that having 2 hands and at least one good eye to see what you're cleaning.
 
I'm certainly  not responsible of giving carpet cleaning a bad name, although my posts might seem so..........it is the fault of the organizations which you give your hard earned money to that are the blemish to the industry. They are the ones who should lobby the government to have a permit requirement to clean carpets and all maintenance for that fact. Any immigrant that comes off the boat can scrape together 500.00 bucks and jump into carpet cleaning and call themselves Pro's.
 
There are 500 Tamils just waiting to get off the boat so that they can buy a portable, some Tide or Dishsoap  and get into the Carpet Cleaning Business.
 
General Lee, over the past 7 years I got to know alot about you, You are a good father to your kids, a good husband to your wife, a very knowledgable Respectable PROFESSIONAL  in the Carpet Industry.....but a very poor judge of character ( you should know me better than that General )
 
                                                       Nightrider
Once a Brigadier General now a Colonel !


Posted By: MR. STEAMER
Date Posted: 18/September/2010 at 12:25am
this thread comes up every year...LOL

Let me end this....

The customer wants the carpet clean... they have no idea what a cadillac or non-cadillac pre-spray is nor do they care about the damn acid in their dye-blockers...LOL

Just get the damn thing clean...no matter what you use...that's all they want...

all carpet cleaners just run around calling the other a Hack...

If they guy is a hack...why do you worry he's be out in no time...or are you just jealous he's got way better marketing than you.  He's getting the job with his hack ass and your not...he's cleaning  your not!LOL


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www.mr-steamer.com


Posted By: duckcountry
Date Posted: 18/September/2010 at 6:49pm
The man hit the nail on the head.  Customers are not educated on our subject, just the ones that make them paychecks.  They want results, not methods.  Clean by any means.

-------------
Are you in a high paying business or are you just a self employed low paid grunt who thinks this business provides dignity?


Posted By: Michael
Date Posted: 18/September/2010 at 10:41pm
I dunno, duckcountry. It depends on your customers, I guess. Those interested in "green services" usually have a specific interest in our methods and chemistry. It's pretty nice, actually, because being invited to demonstrate our knowledge and commitment to their interests helps us get off on the right foot. Anyone who markets their business as green should be able to answer a few questions. I've even handed a jug of HD DFC to a customer and invited her to check it out online. Nothing to hide and eager to share just makes me seem that much more trustworthy. Aside from those types, you and Steamer are pretty much right on the money. They just want clean carpet.

At the end of the day, I do my best and hope for the best. I'm not a scientist. I'm not even a tradesman. I'm just a serviceman trying to build a business.


Posted By: LilNiteRidrhood
Date Posted: 21/September/2010 at 8:56pm

Nightrider- you never know who might actually try some of the ideas you put forward.

You don't see what damage it does.
I invite you to come to my next IICRC CCT class on me---then you tell me if you want just anyone trying home brewed concoctions.
People need guidance in developing a system that is safe.
Safe for them to employ all of the time--not most of the time.
I just saw a guy pay $28K for a new wool/viscose carpet installed in a master bedroom. He cleaned it twice with a truckmount. First time with an enzyme. Ruined.
This is a very reputable company too. These things are happening all the time. I see them as an inspector. Its tough to tell people you know they are screwed. No one is out bragging about screwing them up either, so no one knows its happening. But I am the guy who does get to see them.
Yes 95% of carpet are dummy proof. 4.9% can be a bit of a hassle. 0.1% are a possible damage claim. But when you clean thousands of carpets I don't like the odds. I will stick to be safe but sure.
What I don't understand is how you are not getting horrendous wick back with using all these alkaline surfactants in restaurants .


Posted By: nightrider
Date Posted: 22/September/2010 at 3:40am
 I don't have a problem with wicking because cement and or concrete does not absorbe the spillage or the stain that was introduced to the carpet fibres. Secondly, as far as restaurants go, they don't even look at the job you did, they just see a cleaner carpet and they know that the inspectors will see the same thing, thus one less headache to worry about. They cou;ld give a rats ass about any stains that are left, and if they do.....I tell them, well you waited to long before cleaning it up when it happened and now that stain is like Herpes.....sorry I can't do any better, if you like I can leave you a portable machine for a week and you can have one of your busboys clean that spot 10 times a  day if you like . ( They never take the offer )
 
As far as being your guest at a IICRC  class, Sure I would like that. Let me know where and when.
 
                                                          Nightrider


Posted By: LilNiteRidrhood
Date Posted: 23/September/2010 at 10:21pm
Oct 4 and 5 in Toronto


Posted By: infinityinf
Date Posted: 24/October/2010 at 12:43pm
I have been using sea salt for many years.

I would also recommend some chemical De-Foamers for extreme cases. They are more expensive but your will make sure your job doesn't get delayed or have any issues. The amount of money you could lose if a job didn't get completed is much smaller than the cost of these products.

I use both sea salt and chemicals, depending on the situation.

Sammy
http://www.superiorcleaningtemecula.com - http://www.superiorcleaningtemecula.com


Posted By: Soil Lint Green
Date Posted: 24/October/2010 at 2:34pm
Salt takes the head off a beer in 2 seconds so I know it works to break down carbonates.  I should test it in my wife's dishwater to see what happens and then look innocent.  I have heard it also has a softening effect on water making for a lower quantity of detergent being required to get the same job done.

I know it is an excellent seasoning.


-------------
It's ORY GUN, not OR A GONE. Learn to talk.


Posted By: luigi
Date Posted: 28/April/2016 at 7:03pm
Why would anyone put a defoamer in their cleaning solution? It goes in the waste tank.


Posted By: luigi
Date Posted: 28/April/2016 at 7:47pm
Plus, all of these geniuses seem to know a lot about throwing chemistry terms without having much understanding of what they mean or how they work.

You don't mix anionic and cationic products as it creates an insoluble compound. That is why the fabric softener goes in the rinse cycle and is not mixed in with the detergent. Many carpet cleaners know just enough about chemicals to get into trouble. They know ph and solvency and a few other terms but nothing else. If you don't understand how bleach "bleaches" (oxidation/reduction), how buffering agents work, or even simple things like why you shouldn't clean an iodine stain with ammonia, then you probably should either learn or just don't experiment. I doubt any of the people here throwing around the words cationic and anionic have ever even heard of  zwitterionic


Posted By: Turbo-Man
Date Posted: 25/November/2016 at 7:46am
Most things I've read on this forum topic I've tested and tried different brands of consumer softener for laundry.  Downy ended up for me to deliver the best knock down when I dilute it with some water to help disperse it. Snuggle was worthless. Knock down in the waste tank is one thing but when the hoses get loaded from heavy foam coming directly out of the carpet you end up stopping often so you can suck up softener enough to knock down this CFM reducing foam.  It can literally turn a 1.5 inch hose into a 1" hose in seconds. If you use soft water your foaming problem is even more difficult to resolve. 

Some have commented that the softener chemistry affects the emulsification process if used as a prespray or applied to the carpet while cleaning but if there is already an over use of detergents the dirt and oils are already suspended in the dried surfactants and just need to be rinsed out as efficiently as possible so I say go ahead and prespray away as long as you know that you are dealing with this over foaming situation.  

I was doing hotel rooms where previous "in house cleaning" crews constantly over applied and never rinsed properly the sudzy bubbles from the carpet. This dogged down the whole cleaning process for me.  
I was once told that the old fashioned urinal cakes used in typical gas station bathrooms would melt down foam in the waste tank really well but besides the overpowering odor exhausted these cakes (made from the same compounds as mothballs) were toxic to breathe (carcinogenic) and are now banned by the janitorial industries. 

And so we just keep searching for the best solutions. I say learn on....      


Posted By: Lavon
Date Posted: 05/June/2017 at 7:27pm
I would only use the former from a carpet supplier store I'm not sure about using detergent never heard of that but I would keep it safe because it seems like if you use detergent it would be a lot of soap inside of the carpet so I would go with a defoamer


Posted By: S R C
Date Posted: 02/September/2018 at 7:02am
I've just Brought a new carpet washer. I first went over the carpet two times with hand hot water and cold water in the Reservoir just in case. I was amazed at the dirty water. Not so much dirty water when I used their carpet shampoo. I came on here originally to find out if I could use fabric conditioner in my machine my carpet is older so no stain protection left) I am wondering if doing a quick clean water will be enough, I may try one day but not today as I have a paint stain.
 


Posted By: Billy Barty
Date Posted: 04/September/2018 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by S R C S R C wrote:

I've just Brought a new carpet washer. I first went over the carpet two times with hand hot water and cold water in the Reservoir just in case. I was amazed at the dirty water. Not so much dirty water when I used their carpet shampoo. I came on here originally to find out if I could use fabric conditioner in my machine my carpet is older so no stain protection left) I am wondering if doing a quick clean water will be enough, I may try one day but not today as I have a paint stain.
 


Do you clean a load of laundry using no soap?


-------------
When I clean it, I mean it! :)


Posted By: CarlLagger
Date Posted: 14/October/2018 at 4:25pm
Reading you guys talking about cleaning makes me feel like i dunno a thing about cleaning and i realized how much of a full i was even in cleaning. So, there always something to learn. Then i realize -If you think, that you already posses every knowledge needed and you do believe that you already know above and beyond in something - you wrong. Last time i was so lazy, that i got a cleaning service and i realized how much of a full i was even in cleaning. So, there always something to learn.



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